Brad and everybody else....
OK..... I'll bite. It is amazing what can happen when you are busy for a few days.... First. I know Roland is trying hard to be a nice guy (and not jump all over you guys).... but... what the hell are you thinking?!?!?! Bob's dead, so I know this thread won't actually kill him..... USE the remote area size that you select from the density/area curves to determine the length of the remote area. No adjustment necessary. Unless of course I am competing with you.... then YOU... MUST use the remote area that you actually put down on paper..... STOP IT!! The length of the remote area must be at least as long as this number: 1.2 x sq rt A That's it! A: is the remote area you choose from the area desity curves. Draw a polyline that is exactly that long from the far corner of the building (if this is how your building is so arranged) and if you pass the midpoint of two sprinklers, then go to the next. If you are short of the midpoint...it's all good! These days, you CANNOT divide by spacing, because we don't use a "spacing" for all of the sprinklers in a typical remote area. As Roland said, that's a CASUAL way to figure out if you are close.... Next..... or second, adjust C-Factors?!?!?!?!? STOP IT!!!! If your building has been around for more than 30 years, please.... feel free. C-Factors are based on 20 yr old pipe and they work fine for nearly every building I have ever worked in. However, with a nod to the mad wizard (Scot), if an engineer suspects anything and asks you to do it.... DO IT!!! And (with a nod to the scalpel wielding KW) SHUT UP!!!! Brad, I think someone got in your head and said that this was a good thing. It is definitely more conservative and that is not a bad thing. Roland often speaks of Lamborghinis vs. Volkwagons. If you can afford to keep driving the Lamborghini, keep on keepin on. However, I am selling VW's and I am gonna sell way more cars that way. And my customers will not only be happy..... they'll be alive!!! And finally, a nod to Professor Greenman and the incredible work he does..... we are going to rock this industry as we change the way people learn (Ron has some great ideas!!). I hope that everyone will soon hire designers that have a degree in Sprinkler System Technology. I'll figure out how to get George and other folks that are getting old..... into another email sometime.... but we DO start a new online Hydraulics Class soon (New Jersey Chapter is getting a 10% discount on tuition)..... Thanks to Steve Muncy and his cru that allow me to keep poppin' in.... It should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of the NFPA 13 Committee on Installation Criteria, and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the NFPA, nor any of their technical committees. Sincerely, Cecil Bilbo Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology Champaign, IL 217-363-2460 www.sprinkleracademy.com > From: bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: Calc Area > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:22:32 -0500 > > So, Cecil, should I feel bad about leaving a box or 2 of heads off remote > lines or not? > > -----Original Message----- > From: George Church [mailto:for...@ptd.net] > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 4:12 PM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: Calc Area > > Y'all REALLY REALLY need to sign up for one of Cecil's online classes if we > spend this much time talking about how we lay out the MRA. If you're unsure, > or the code changed and you didn't, maybe it's time to go back to school. No > shame in making sure you do it correctly from this crowd! > > And ya know the inspector and plan reviewer aren't gonna catch these things > 98% of the time. So you'll either "get away" with a mistake, or you'll be > defending your methodology in court, with your design guru(s) sitting beside > you, facing the best forensic engineering talent money can buy. Remember, > they may be looking to pin a couple to several million dollar loss on YOU > and your insurance carrier. And if you carry $2m in coverage, have a $3m > loss, guess what happens to your house, business, car, etc? If you've still > got assets to protect, I'd be careful to do it correctly. That MINIMUM > consensus standard isn't the end all, be all. It's a MINIMUM standard. > > glc > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 3:44 PM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: Calc Area > > I was shocked when first confronted with the idea 8 years ago--- let us see > what others have to say... > > -----Original Message----- > From: ParsleyConsulting [mailto:parsleyconsult...@cox.net] > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 2:35 PM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: Re: Calc Area > > Brad, > > I was intrigued by your remarks about having to re-evaluate the minimum > length of the remote area parallel to the branch lines if you were to > end up with a remote area of a different size than where the standard > initially had you start. > > I can't find anything in my copy of the NFPA-13 handbook, or the > Hydaulic Design text book by Pat Brock from Oklahoma State which even > remotely suggests this is a requirement. > > I've never done this, and I want to be sure I haven't missed something > critical. I need to be sure I understand what you're saying, because > for me the implications are huge for the plans I review on a daily basis > for a number of AHJ's. > > Are you stating that if in order to meet the requirements for a 1,500 > square foot remote area I were to end up with a remote area of 1,600 > square feet I then have to make an evaluation to make sure that the > length of the remote area parallel to the branch lines is at least 1.2 x > sqrt of 1,600? In effect, I need at least 48'-0", not the 46'-5" I > started with? If that's your position, can you give me some idea of how > you determined that such an additional requirement is necessary? > > I've got to tell you that if that is truly the case, I'm in seriously > deep trouble, as I've been doing calculations and plan reviews based on > a flawed premise, and that makes me really nervous. > > Can you give me/us some background on how you came to that conclusion? > > I'd really appreciate the help. > -- > > PARSLEY CONSULTING > > Ken Wagoner, SET > > 760.745.6181 voice > > 760.745.0537 fax > > parsleyconsult...@cox.net <mailto:parsleyconsult...@cox.net> e-mail > > www.ParsleyConsulting.com <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com> website > > > Brad wrote: > > I don't think this is about density at all > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: A.P.Silva [mailto:silva...@shaw.ca] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 2:13 PM > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com > > Subject: RE: Calc Area > > > > If I understand what you are saying, it may not be correct either. If you > > use the density corresponding to 1500 SF, then you don't have to check the > > length again. If you use the density for 1640 SF, then you are right. > > > > Tony > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad > > Sent: April 20, 2010 1:02 PM > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; b...@firebyknight.com > > Subject: RE: Calc Area > > > > Why average anything--the actual dimensions are right there-- the thing I > am > > stressing is if you end up with 1640 SF area USED, go back and make sure > 49' > > does not put you more than half way to ANOTHER head on the line-- the 1.2 > > rule is for area USED, not minimum required area. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: A.P.Silva [mailto:silva...@shaw.ca] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:51 PM > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; b...@firebyknight.com > > Subject: RE: Calc Area > > > > The critical factor is the length of the design area. Not the number of > > heads. For 1500 RA and 1.2 shape factor this is approx. 46.5 feet. So > taking > > your example, it will be 5 heads per line, whichever side is the most > > remote. Your method will work, but maybe not always. Say substitute 6' for > > 7' in your example. If the most remote area is the 8' side, now it is 6 > > heads on the line. If you use your method and take 5 heads per line the > > minimum length of the design area will not be correct. > > > > Tony > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Knight > > Sent: April 20, 2010 12:30 PM > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > Subject: RE: Calc Area > > > > George, > > The way I do this is to average the lengths between heads. For example, > you > > have a branch line with 6 heads. They are spaced 8', 12', 9', 11', 7', & > > 10' apart. The average will be 9.5' applying the 1.2 rule (assuming 1500 > > sf) you will have 4.89 (round up to 5) heads per line. If you use the > > greatest distance of 12' you end up with only 3.87 (round up to 4) heads > per > > line. If you chose to use the least dimension of 7' you will end up with > > 6.63 (round up to 7) heads per line. 7 seems like to many and 4 looks > like > > not enough. This is why I average the distance between heads in a case > such > > as yours. > > > > Bob Knight, CET > > 1660 Hill Rd > > Melba, Idaho 83641 > > (208) 318-3057 > > (208) 495-2057 fax > > b...@firebyknight.com > > www.firebyknight.com > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George > Medina > > Jr > > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 12:41 AM > > To: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org > > Subject: Calc Area > > > > > > If I am calculating a tree type system using the area/design method, and > > have several different lengths between sprinklers on a branch line. Would > I > > use the longest length to determine the amount of sprinklers on a branch > > line. I have always used an average (which I've probably been wrong all > > these years). > > > > 1.2vdesign area > > S > > S= Distance between sprinklers on branch line > > > > > > > > 1.2vdesign area > > S > > S= Distance between sprinklers on branch line > > > > > > > > > > George Medina Jr. > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2820 - Release Date: 04/19/10 > > 00:31:00 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
