Actually, Ken, you've solved where to apply the tar and feathers- to that contractor.
glc -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of ParsleyConsulting Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 5:30 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: pipe schedule and storage Art, Here's another one along those same lines. In the ongoing discussion regarding NFPA-25 compliant inspections possibly doing an analysis of the system beyond the scope of that document, a contractor client of mine insisted to me that as sprinkler people we had the same responsibility as doctors to identify "deficiencies" and force compliance with today's standards, regardless of occupancy change over the years. So, today, that came across my plan table. A contractor doing an inspection ran across a store, built in 1979, and calculated for OH2, and installed. Occupancy hasn't change a bit in 31 years, it's still a store, same owners, same shelves, same stock, same everything. The write up from the contractor to the owner informed them that since the density for OH2 had changed in the subsequent years from when the system was designed and installed, that it would be necessary to prepare new calculations to show that the system - as installed - could support the 5% increase in density from 0.19 gpm/sqft to 0.20 gpm/sqft. What I had to say in response is probably not suited for a public message board. -- PARSLEY CONSULTING Ken Wagoner, SET 760.745.6181 voice 760.745.0537 fax [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> e-mail www.ParsleyConsulting.com <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com> website Art Tiroly wrote: > I have a real problem with this concept. This sounds like a system with 3/4" > end lines that was meant for manufacturing. If you intruduce a high > hazard process or storage that will not be controlled by this old > schedule system, it is till OK to not require that sprinkler system be > calculated to the requirements of the new occupancy? > > If it is a calculated OH2 system does that need to be brought up to > the requirements of the hazard due to the change in occupancy? > > Art Tiroly/AFSA > ATCO Fire Protection > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron > Greenman > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:15 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: pipe schedule and storage > > Again, I don't know why it would need to even comply with chapter 22 > unless there is something in the applicable building code with any > legal amendments or in a local ordinance that would drive an upgrade > to current code. When I worked for a building department in California > we had if the occupancy changed or if the new work exceeded 25% of the > assessed value of the building for drivers. Other than that only NEW > work needed to meet the current code and then was modified by language > such as Forest cites about new work to old pipe schedule systems needing to maintain the pipe schedule. > Whatever your current 13 is it is the standard for INSTALLATION of > sprinkler systems, not the revamping of existing systems. That is > still governed by version of 13 under which the system was installed > unless some other piece of legislation contravenes or the existing > condition is a danger to public health or safety. > > On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Forest Wilson > <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Roland is correct. >> NFPA does not state a 30% increase requirement. >> NFPA 13-11.2.3.2.5 requires a 30% increase for hydraulically >> calculated systems. >> However, 13-11.2.2.3 clearly states that "Additions or modifications >> to existing pipe schedule systems sized according to the pipe >> schedules"..shall be permitted. >> So, provided that the system piping complied with Chapter 22,this >> system could be converted from wet to dry using the pipe schedule >> system. It could be considered a modification not requiring hydraulic >> calcs with the increase. >> >> Forest Wilson >> Cherokee Fire >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John >> O'Connor >> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 12:34 PM >> To: [email protected]; [email protected] >> Subject: RE: pipe schedule and storage >> >> And if the system is converted to dry can the existing pipe schedule >> afford the 30% area increase while flowing water thru two pieces of 1" >> at the end of all lines. I doubt it. >> John O'Connor >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad >> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:26 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: pipe schedule and storage >> >> And hopefully it was installed long enough ago that sloping the pipe >> to drain was required on wet systems too >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:21 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: pipe schedule and storage >> >> Typically if you're not touching the old system it can stay in place >> > as-is. > >> BUT if they want to modify it and try to change from wet to dry (good >> luck with that) then it's game over and it has to meet current codes. >> The whole idea of grandfathering in non-compliant systems is a misnomer. >> >> Plus the big thing, how can you prove the system will function when >> changing from wet to dry without calculating it? >> >> Besides, when did the owner become a code and fire protection expert? >> You just gotta love it. >> >> Craig L. Prahl, CET >> Fire Protection Specialist >> Mechanical Department >> CH2MHILL >> Lockwood Greene >> 1500 International Drive >> Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >> Direct - 864.599.4102 >> Fax - 864.599.8439 >> [email protected] >> http://www.ch2m.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd >> Williams >> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 12:14 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: pipe schedule and storage >> >> I think I have this one, but could use a little more ammo. I walked >> through an old mill building this morning with an old OH pipe >> schedule system. (They want to convert from wet to dry). In the >> building, they have some 8 ft storage of a Group A plastics in >> cardboard cartons and well as 2 piles of idle pallets to 8 ft. The >> owner is claiming that the pipe schedule is grandfathered and the >> system does not need to meet the hydraulic criteria. I disagree and >> am basing most of my argument on the water supply requirements in >> 11.2.2 (NFPA 13, 2002 edition). Any other thoughts? >> >> Todd G. Williams, PE >> Fire Protection Design/Consulting >> Stonington, CT >> 860.535.2080 >> www.fpdc.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3064 - Release Date: >> 08/11/10 01:34:00 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA > > 253.680.7346 > > Member: > AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
