Apologies Ron, I was "somewhat" following the conversation while traveling the state and fell victim to the dreaded topic shift of the forum when I reached Art and Ken's posts. (my doing, not there's) I agree with your statement. Let's not forget the $$$ either. A lot (most?)jurisdictions have a set amount where full evaluation by a professional must be completed as well. Then comes the aforementioned codes.
R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile [email protected] > >-----Original Message----- > >From: [email protected] [mailto:sprinklerforum- > >[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman > >Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:45 PM > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: Re: pipe schedule and storage > > > >Matt, > > > >25 would not be the driver, nor would 13. It's the building codes. And > >I wouldn't necessarily call Art's scenario an "occupancy" change. It > >might be or it might not depending on definitions in the building > >code. Another driver would be the owner if he wanted to assess whether > >an upgrade would be a good idea or not. The owner can do what he wants > >within the code. The code enforcement officer can require whatever the > >code authorizes him to do. The contractor or other hired hand > >(engineer) can make recommendations but drives no decision. > > > >On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:31 PM, [email protected] > ><[email protected]> wrote: > >> Art, what you are stating is an occupancy change. (introducing a high > >hazard) as opposed to just going from wet to dry. That WOULD require > >calcs. Changing a system to dry for the same occupancy does not. Should > >it? Yes, in my opinion, but not per 25 . > >> > >> My HTC EVO 4 made cobbler out of your Blackberry!! > >> > >> ----- Reply message ----- > >> From: "Art Tiroly" <[email protected]> > >> Date: Wed, Aug 11, 2010 4:11 pm > >> Subject: pipe schedule and storage > >> To: "[email protected]" > ><[email protected]> > >> > >> I have a real problem with this concept. This sounds like a system with > >3/4" > >> end lines that was meant for manufacturing. If you intruduce a high > >hazard > >> process or storage that will not be controlled by this old schedule > >system, > >> it is till OK to not require that sprinkler system be calculated to the > >> requirements of the new occupancy? > >> > >> If it is a calculated OH2 system does that need to be brought up to the > >> requirements of the hazard due to the change in occupancy? > >> > >> Art Tiroly/AFSA > >> ATCO Fire Protection > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron > >Greenman > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:15 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: pipe schedule and storage > >> > >> Again, I don't know why it would need to even comply with chapter 22 > >unless > >> there is something in the applicable building code with any legal > >amendments > >> or in a local ordinance that would drive an upgrade to current code. > >When I > >> worked for a building department in California we had if the occupancy > >> changed or if the new work exceeded 25% of the assessed value of the > >> building for drivers. Other than that only NEW work needed to meet the > >> current code and then was modified by language such as Forest cites > >about > >> new work to old pipe schedule systems needing to maintain the pipe > >schedule.. > >> Whatever your current 13 is it is the standard for INSTALLATION of > >sprinkler > >> systems, not the revamping of existing systems. That is still governed > >by > >> version of 13 under which the system was installed unless some other > >piece > >> of legislation contravenes or the existing condition is a danger to > >public > >> health or safety. > >> > >> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Forest Wilson > ><[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >>> Roland is correct. > >>> NFPA does not state a 30% increase requirement. > >>> NFPA 13-11.2.3.2.5 requires a 30% increase for hydraulically > >>> calculated systems. > >>> However, 13-11.2.2.3 clearly states that "Additions or modifications > >>> to existing pipe schedule systems sized according to the pipe > >>> schedules"..shall be permitted. > >>> So, provided that the system piping complied with Chapter 22,this > >>> system could be converted from wet to dry using the pipe schedule > >>> system. It could be considered a modification not requiring hydraulic > >>> calcs with the increase. > >>> > >>> Forest Wilson > >>> Cherokee Fire > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: [email protected] > >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John > >>> O'Connor > >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 12:34 PM > >>> To: [email protected]; [email protected] > >>> Subject: RE: pipe schedule and storage > >>> > >>> And if the system is converted to dry can the existing pipe schedule > >>> afford the 30% area increase while flowing water thru two pieces of 1" > >>> at the end of all lines. I doubt it. > >>> John O'Connor > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: [email protected] > >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad > >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:26 AM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: RE: pipe schedule and storage > >>> > >>> And hopefully it was installed long enough ago that sloping the pipe > >>> to drain was required on wet systems too > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:21 AM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: RE: pipe schedule and storage > >>> > >>> Typically if you're not touching the old system it can stay in place > >> as-is. > >>> BUT if they want to modify it and try to change from wet to dry (good > >>> luck with that) then it's game over and it has to meet current codes. > >>> The whole idea of grandfathering in non-compliant systems is a > >misnomer. > >>> > >>> Plus the big thing, how can you prove the system will function when > >>> changing from wet to dry without calculating it? > >>> > >>> Besides, when did the owner become a code and fire protection expert? > >>> You just gotta love it. > >>> > >>> Craig L. Prahl, CET > >>> Fire Protection Specialist > >>> Mechanical Department > >>> CH2MHILL > >>> Lockwood Greene > >>> 1500 International Drive > >>> Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > >>> Direct - 864.599.4102 > >>> Fax - 864.599.8439 > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://www.ch2m.com > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: [email protected] > >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd > >>> Williams > >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 12:14 PM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: pipe schedule and storage > >>> > >>> I think I have this one, but could use a little more ammo. I walked > >>> through an old mill building this morning with an old OH pipe schedule > >>> system. (They want to convert from wet to dry). In the building, they > >>> have some 8 ft storage of a Group A plastics in cardboard cartons and > >>> well as 2 piles of idle pallets to 8 ft. The owner is claiming that > >>> the pipe schedule is grandfathered and the system does not need to > >>> meet the hydraulic criteria. I disagree and am basing most of my > >>> argument on the water supply requirements in > >>> 11.2.2 (NFPA 13, 2002 edition). Any other thoughts? > >>> > >>> Todd G. Williams, PE > >>> Fire Protection Design/Consulting > >>> Stonington, CT > >>> 860.535.2080 > >>> www.fpdc.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >>> > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > >>> to:[email protected] > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >>> > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > >>> to:[email protected] > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >>> > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > >>> to:[email protected] > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >>> > >>> No virus found in this incoming message. > >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >>> Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3064 - Release Date: > >>> 08/11/10 01:34:00 > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >>> > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > >>> to:[email protected] > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >>> > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > >>> to:[email protected] > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Ron Greenman > >> Instructor > >> Fire Protection Engineering > >> Bates Technical College > >> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > >> Tacoma, WA > >> > >> 253.680.7346 > >> > >> Member: > >> AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > >> > >> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > >Bacon, > >> essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >> > >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- > >[email protected] > >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >> > >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- > >[email protected] > >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >> > >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- > >[email protected] > >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > > >-- > >Ron Greenman > >Instructor > >Fire Protection Engineering > >Bates Technical College > >1101 So. Yakima Ave. > >Tacoma, WA > > > >253.680.7346 > > > >Member: > >AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > > >They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > >Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3065 - Release Date: 08/11/10 > >13:34:00 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
