Nice Bad Moodsville. Hackles up and full of bile. Matthew you might also take a piece of furniture and a box of something to store and ask him to demonstrate how he can habitate or store something above an ACT. He f***** up and is trying to save his a** at your expense.
On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 4:44 PM, steve <[email protected]> wrote: > He is completely, totally full of crap. Or sadly, badly mistaken, if you > give him the benefit of the doubt. Ask him to submit to the AHJ for an > interp, or bring in a consultant to explain accessibility. That's a code > defined concept and if it's "accessible" then ADA applies in a school, no? > Ask hime for his egress plan for the affected spaces. > > Idiots. > > SML > Bad Moodsville > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Martin, Matthew" <[email protected]> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 19:25:15 > To: [email protected]<[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Interstitial Space > > Thank you all for your input. It has helped me confirm that my argument is on > the right track. We are arguing about $190,000. They want to pull from a > change that is about 80% complete. > I have received a new rebuttal from the architect it is; > > Per NFPA 13 8.14.1.2.2 (2002) "noncombustible and limited combustible > concealed spaces with limited access and not permitting occupancy or storage > of combustibles shall not require sprinkler protection. The space shall be > considered a concealed space even with small openings such as those used as > return air for a plenum", sprinkling of interstitial space above ACT (i.e. > classrooms) is required. ACT is not considered limited access to the > concealed space. All portion of an ACT ceiling is accessible > > Is his contention that acoustical tile ceiling is accessible. > My argument will be that no one will be occupying that space and nothing > will be stored in that space. The only reason anyone will be up there is for > servicing something. An ACT suspended ceiling fits into this code section. > Thanks, > > Matt > > > > > Matthew Martin > CQC Manager > Suffolk Construction Company, Inc. > Direct: 323-781-1778 > Cell: 949-892-7419 > > www.suffolkconstruction.com > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail-----Original > Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 3:17 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Interstitial Space > > 2001 CBC allows a 4-story building if Type II- FR. It allows only two > stories if Type II-One Hour. If you're sure that the buildings are > II-FR and if return air is ducted, then it sounds like a construction > documents conflict and I would agree with you that sprinklers may not be > required by code. > > Steve > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Martin, > Matthew > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 2:37 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Interstitial Space > > I should amend my last remarks; > The three buildings that are using sprinklers as a fire resistive > substitution WE ARE installing sprinklers in the interstitial space. It > is the four story Type II-FR buildings where we are arguing with the > design team. There is no note on the plans to use fire sprinklers a > substitution at those buildings. So the "note" is listed on three > buildings and note listed on three other buildings. > > > > Matthew Martin > CQC Manager > Suffolk Construction Company, Inc. > Direct: 323-781-1778 > Cell: 949-892-7419 > > www.suffolkconstruction.com > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail-----Original > Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gregg > Fontes > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 1:23 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Interstitial Space > > We have done many DSA projects in our neck of California, if sprinklers > are > used for substitutions, above ceilings are sprinkled. No and, if, or > buts. > > Thanks, > Gregg Fontes > Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc. > 209-334-9119 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve > Leyton > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 1:18 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Interstitial Space > > Sorry dude, see CSFM 03-30: > http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/codeinterpretation/pdf/2003/03_030.pdf > > Pursuant to a question regarding the use of sprinklers in > non-combustible interstitial space to satisfy Sect. 508 of 2001 CBC, the > answer is: "When an automatic sprinkler system is used for fire > resistive substitution, complete sprinkler coverage is required. > Sprinkler omissions allowed by NFPA 13 are not permitted in this case." > > Steve > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Martin, > Matthew > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 1:12 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Interstitial Space > > We are on the 2001 CBC. Type II FR can be as high as 4 stories. > We have six buildings on this project. three of the buildings noted on > the Building Code Data Table that sprinklers are used for fire resistive > substitution. > The interstitial space above the classrooms is used only for relief air. > The return air is connected to the duct system. > I am relying on IR9-1 2.3 for backing up the my argument against the > "requirement" of uprights in the areas not noted as using sprinklers in > lieu of fire resistive construction. All the space above the ceilings is > non-combustible and the construction between floors is 2 hour > construction. > The following is from the table for the specific Building I am dealing > with. > > BUILDING 2 SMALL LEARNING CENTERS > FIRE SPRINKLERS > FULLY SPRINKLERED > > FIRE RESISTIVE REQUIREMENTS > (CBC TABLE 6-A) > BEARING WALLS - EXTERIOR 4 - SEC. 603.3.1 > BEARING WALLS - INTERIOR 2 > NONBEARING WALLS - EXTERIOR 4 - SEC. 603.3.1 > STRUCTURAL FRAME 2 > PARTITIONS - PERMANENT 1 > SHAFT ENCLOSURES 2 > FLOORS AND FLOOR-CEILING 2 > ROOFS AND ROOF-CEILINGS 1 - SEC. 603.5 > EXTERIOR DOORS AND WINDOWS SEC 603.3.2 > > > > > Matthew Martin > CQC Manager > Suffolk Construction Company, Inc. > Direct: 323-781-1778 > Cell: 949-892-7419 > > www.suffolkconstruction.com > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail-----Original > Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve > Leyton > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 12:39 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Interstitial Space > > I've been in meeting that prevented me from chiming in earlier. You > have opened one of the great buckets of worms that DSA has in their > closet, but I should caution you that there are a couple of California > interps and code requirements that absolutely may compel the > installation of sprinklers in non-combustible attics and interstitial > spaces. > > I'm assuming that this is a deferred submittal, yes? And as such > you're working under 2007 CBC? If so, my first question is, are > sprinklers being used by the architect in lieu of fire-rated > construction? A Type II building can only be 2-stories if it's II-B, so > in order to make it II-A they will have to spray the structure with > Monokote or use the sprinklers. And that's to get three floors - to get > the fourth they have to count the sprinklers. And for E-occupancy, you > can't take both an area increase in addition to the height increase > (CSFM amendment) without some alternative means and methods. CSFM > Formal Interpretation 03-30 states that where sprinklers are used in > lieu of fire resistive construction, all areas of the building - > including interstitial and concealed spaces - shall be sprinklered > regardless of combustibility of structure. > > I would also call your attention to 907.2.3.6.1 which is the requirement > for smoke detection in "ceiling-plenums" where interstitial spaces are > used for return air. In an e-occupancy, such spaces require smoke > detection or sprinklers in the plenum spaces, regardless of > combustibility. Did you review the architect's code analysis? Do > they note that sprinklers are being taken in lieu of fire-resistive > construction and/or detection in plenum spaces? > > Steve Leyton > Sick To My Stomach That I Can Recite All of That From Memory > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Martin, > Matthew > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 11:50 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Interstitial Space > > The heat detectors were specifically excluded from the drawings > > > > Matthew Martin > CQC Manager > Suffolk Construction Company, Inc. > Direct: 323-781-1778 > Cell: 949-892-7419 > > www.suffolkconstruction.com > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail-----Original > Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George > Church > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 11:48 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Interstitial Space > > If you end up with "HERE'S THE EXTRA YOU OWE US" then yes, you're on the > right track. > Might be you owe em a credit from the FA guy for the detectors not > installed, but I'll bet the SSU were a lot more. > > Taking their everywhere and completely would have you providing > sprinklers 16" on center above all the wall cavities formed by vertical > metal studs, inside all the ductwork, and in California- I can't even > render a guess as to what other cavities might require protection. > > George Church > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > [email protected] > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Martin, > Matthew > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 2:41 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Interstitial Space > > Thank you for all the answers so far. Here is some further > clarifications. > Our project is a new high school in Los Angeles , CA. > The buildings in question are 4 story classroom buildings with the > space between floors of about 36"-40" of non combustible space. > The argument we are having is that the upright sprinklers are not > required based on NFPA 8.14.1.2 (2002). Many of you have confirmed our > argument, thank you. The design team directed us to install them about > eight months ago and planned on paying us for the work. Now they are > saying they were required because fully means "everywhere and > completely." Part of my argument back will be that they wanted the > upright sprinklers installed in lieu of heat detectors. It is heat > detectors that are required for activation of the fire alarm system. The > sprinkler system ( uprights) here is not being used as a suppression > system but as an activation system. Am I on the right track? > > > > Matthew Martin > CQC Manager > Suffolk Construction Company, Inc. > Direct: 323-781-1778 > Cell: 949-892-7419 > > www.suffolkconstruction.com > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail-----Original > Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George > Church > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 11:23 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Interstitial Space > > Clearly there's a HUGE dif between an interstitial space above a drop > ceiling and below the deck above, and the vision you made me remember of > an animal research lab at Merck with 15' high interstitial spaces with > grated floors throughout. In that one, sprinklers were installed in the > noncombustible concealed space because with the doorways accessing the > grated platform, it was no longer concealed. > > Another point to consider when dealing with pharmaceuticals, clean > rooms, bio and nanotechnologies, is the dollar values involved (or > business interruption) may cause an Owner or insurance carrier to ask > for sprinkler protection beyond that required by minimum consensus > standards. > > George Church > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > [email protected] > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 2:11 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Interstitial Space > > For many industrial projects, especial biotech and microelectronics, > interstitial space is commonly used to describe the space between floors > - especially where the spaces are tall enough to accommodate personnel. > > I am now gun shy enough to where I plan full automatic sprinkler > protection throughout interstitial spaces. We once got burned where the > local AHJ's signed off in writing that the interstitial spaces did not > have to be sprinklered only to be told a year later that they would > require protection based on a new evaluation by a code consultant. We > had been told that minimal plastic drain pipe and fire resistant cable > was acceptable. > > If the interstitial "floor" is a walkable ceiling, you will more than > likely lose the battle even if the space is non-combustible and has > non-combustible contents because the argument will be that storage would > be possible. > > Regards, > > Jim > > > James L (Jim) Roberts, PE/SET |FLUOR|Central Operations| > [email protected]|IODC 20.5149 |864.281.5149| www.fluor.com > > > > From: Todd Williams <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Date: 03/07/2011 01:49 PM > Subject: Re: Interstitial Space > Sent by: [email protected] > > > > Interstitial and concealed can be assumed synonymous in our situation. > Interstitial tends to apply more to things like spaces between walls. > > > At 01:46 PM 3/7/2011, you wrote: >>Is the space combustible? >>On Mar 7, 2011 12:39 PM, "Martin, Matthew" > <[email protected]> >>wrote: >> > Can anyone tell me what the NFPA says about the requirements of > sprinklers >>in the interstitial space. What is the definition of " Interstitial > Space"? >> > Also where in the NFPA is the term Interstitial Space used. >> > We have an Architect who says that a fully sprinklered building > includes >>sprinklers in all the interstitial spaces. >> > >> > Thanks in advance, >> > >> > >> > >> > Matthew Martin >> > CQC Manager >> > Suffolk Construction Company, Inc. >> > Direct: 323-781-1778 >> > Cell: 949-892-7419 >> > >> > www.suffolkconstruction.com >> > >> > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> > >> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >> > [email protected] >> > >> > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] >> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>[email protected] >>http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email >>to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > Todd G. 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