Hi Ron, Just so there is no confusion, your reply did not seem holier than thou or preachy but simply some great advice from an esteemed colleague. Also did not think you were questioning Greg's honor. I was merely trying to thank you for your wisdom and encourage you to do so. We all need it. And I was simply trying to give Greg some credit for having integrity in his business dealings. He is a really good guy.
And 'hat's off' to you for doing the right thing. Character and integrity are many times forgotten when business is involved and that is a tragic legacy for our society. Cliff -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 5:16 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: ENCLOSED COMBUSTIBLE STAIRS Greg, There was never a doubt in my mind regarding your honor. Nor did I intend to come across as preachy and/or holier than though. I was only telling you a story regarding a similar circumstance where I had to decides what I would do with the goal of perhaps helping you make up your mind about what you could live with. As you said, you want to do the right thing, and your question seemed to be saying, if I may paraphrase, "I'm not so sure what I want to do is right and I hope one of you can show me it is." I don't think it is, but it is a small thing and if in your shoes with your concerns I might come to the same conclusion. My story wasn't about a minor rules infraction in a small space that probably has no chance of ever being the source of a fire. Mine had to do with siding with an honorable man at my peril or with a dishonorable man to avoid that peril. Since this went down to the very core of my personal philosophy regarding right and wrong I truly had only one choice. This is more like what should I do if I find a twenty on the floor in a restaurant? And if Cliff personally vouches for your integrity then that just reassures me my assessment is accurate. On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Greg McGahan <[email protected]> wrote: > Wow, thanks Cliff. I want to do the right thing period. This particular > issue aside, I think this worth an informal def for future reference. > Greg > On Apr 9, 2011 4:08 PM, "Cliff Whitfield" <[email protected]> wrote: >> Ron, >> >> Good advice. And we all need 'Dads' at some point in time (even us old >> guys). I can tell you that what I know of Greg he is an honorable guy and >> would never intentionally do the wrong thing. My hope is that it will turn >> out well for him and instead of it being a 'bad thing' that it turn out > well >> for all involved. >> >> Cliff >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron > Greenman >> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 11:44 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: ENCLOSED COMBUSTIBLE STAIRS >> >> Greg, >> >> If it doesn't meet one of the allowable exceptions in 13, which it >> doesn't sound like it does, then you have only two choices. To force >> the issue or to pretend it doesn't exist. To do the latter is a >> dis-service to the owner who is expecting a proper job. The GC is the >> culprit. As I said, it is his job to coordinate the work and he has >> failed. in his responsibility to the owner. If he does not understand >> this then perhaps you're better off without him. Next he'll want you >> to glue heads to the ceiling. Once you take a small ignore a small >> thing in a conspiratorial manner (you and the GC hiding something from >> the owner and the AHJ) you have surrendered your morals, ethics, and >> ability to take a stand with that contractor for all time. You have >> also compromised yourself here. Of course this is difficult in these >> economic times, and it's easy for me to say from my cushy (or so I'm >> told) public employee position, but I can tell you I'm here because I >> had to leave a very lucrative management position when I took the side >> of a customer over that of my boss in a contract dispute because my >> boss (who has since done time in the Federal pokey for income tax >> issues) was trying to cheat a good, and honorable man, and I had to do >> the right thing, even if it cost me my job. Worked out well for me, >> but at the time being ethical was early scary as I was the sole source >> of income for five people and operating under a non-compete agreement. >> I'll tell you the whole story someday if you're interested but it was >> only over about $3000.00 dollars. And all I had to do was answer a yes >> or no question the other way to save my job and sell my soul. Now I'm >> feeling like your dad so I'll shut up. >> >> On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 8:38 AM, Greg McGahan <[email protected]> > wrote: >>> That's not my option guys. We were hired to do two things, relocate > heads >>> for the new wall and add two heads in a concealed space. The g.c. >> knowingly >>> blocked it in and sealed it off with no intentions for further actions on >>> his or our part. >>> >>> The only thing I can do is rationalize reasonably if possible why it is > ok >>> as is or call the fire marshall as a whistle blower. >>> >>> That is an easy decision if you are not worried about losing the >> inspection >>> contract or being black listed by the general. >>> >>> So am I grasping for a legal straw? Absolutely. If those on the 13 >> commitee >>> and the majority of the rest believe it is too much of a stretch, then I >>> will play whistle blower.......we do NOT want to leave it unjustifyably >>> wrong. >>> Greg >>> On Apr 9, 2011 10:28 AM, "Thom" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> Then I'd say have the GC drywall it and mmake it a concealed >>> Non-combustible >>>> space. Or just blow it full of insul. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg >>> McGahan >>>> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 3:19 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: ENCLOSED COMBUSTIBLE STAIRS >>>> >>>> No, it is not a room, it is a combustible concealed space UNDER an area >>> ... >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Thom <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> It's not truly the "Space over the small room" it is the small room. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg >>>>> McGahan >>>>> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 2:44 PM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: ENCLOSED COMBUSTIBLE STAIRS >>>>> >>>>> We were hired to put 2 heads under a new combustible set of stairs that >>>>> were >>>>> added as an emergency egress in an existing LH building. The GC > "forgot" >>>>> and >>>>> enclosed the stairs - space approximately 3-6 x 18' long - and finished >>>> the >>>>> space. We still have to relocate a couple of heads in an adjacent area >> so >>>>> we >>>>> are not completely free of any obligations there. Note that this space >> is >>>>> under a one floor stair and contains NOTHING, no wires, pipes, ducts, >> etc >>>>> except the framing. >>>>> >>>>> Question: Is there any chance this would even be in the same ballpark > as >>>>> the >>>>> exception in chapter 8.15.1.2.9 for spaces over isolated small >>>>> rooms.....Since a permit was not required on this project, the AHJ does >>>> not >>>>> know about it and the only question is morally how hard we push this >>>>> situation. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your thoughts. >>>>> Greg >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Greg McGahan >>>>> Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> >>>>> 1160 McKenzie Road >>>>> Cantonment, FL 32533 >>>>> 850-937-1850 >>>>> fax 850-937-1852 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>>> >>>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >>>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>>> >>>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >>>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Greg McGahan >>>> Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> >>>> 1160 McKenzie Road >>>> Cantonment, FL 32533 >>>> 850-937-1850 >>>> fax 850-937-1852 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ron Greenman >> Instructor >> Fire Protection Engineering Technology >> Bates Technical College >> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >> Tacoma, WA 98405 >> >> [email protected] >> >> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >> >> 253.680.7346 >> 253.576.9700 (cell) >> >> Member: >> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC >> >> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
