I've been hanging blinds, and just now have the time to note this most extraordinary turn of the thread. I got nothing - this may be the greatest correspondence in the history of the Forum.
Remember back in 1997 or thereabout, when an errant email home from some kid in the Midwest (no, not you Brad) was updating her parents about how much fun she was having at Grandma and Grandpa's, and that evening they enjoyed a great visit with the Slotnicks? Good times. Yessir, Mr. Muncy. On topic from hereto forward, siryessir! SL -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] on behalf of Ron Greenman Sent: Tue 6/11/2013 5:53 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: adjusting the K-Factor with our bare hands I love the 1. Typo. or 2. Auto Correct. or 3. Freudian ????? or 4. Slotism. "...and I'm licking myself...." You just keep "hanging out with the woman and licking yourself." It's not a pretty picture, but it will be now and forever be how I think of you. As my father-in-laws dementia advanced, but before he was totally lost we were over at his house. My eldest son and I were hanging with him when a couple of family friends showed up. These were both women, both our age (not his), long time family friends, and under normal circumstances would be very recognizable to him. Note that both always were way too much make-up. On this particular occasion he didn't remember who they were and his comment was, and totally out of normal character, " Hey! Who ordered the hookers?" He passed away a bit over a year ago but when I think of him it's saying and I always chuckle. You just keep licking yourself for a long time, OK. And let Leyton Yosemite Sam out on Brad. On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 5:32 PM, George Church <[email protected]>wrote: > Brad > I'd rather spend my remaining time with my wife and I'm licking myself for > saying anything. Btw who might be accepting this for the jurisdiction? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:56 PM, "Brad Casterline" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Thanks Matt and Ron. I appreciate ALL feedback. > > I like posting numbers because there is no opinion, personal feelings, > > hearsay, etc. I know a ton about D-W and H-W, and I do not need to repeat > > the Velocity of Efflux experiments of the early 1600's to know I am > correct > > about K-Factors. Would it be too much to ask of you to simply work a few > of > > the numbers that back up the concepts I post, BEFORE I get your > Criticisms > > and Opinions? Either that or YOU show ME how it is done- adjusting > K-Factors > > I mean, from NFPA 13 referenced earlier? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ron Greenman [mailto:[email protected]] > > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 2:03 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: adjusting the K-Factor with our bare hands > > > > can I say strongly enough how much I agree with what Matt said? can I say > > it again? And third time being the charm, I agree with what Matt said--a > > lot--and with George's earlier comments. > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Matt Grise <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> I would strongly caution against using this method for estimate > >> calculations. (Without doing extensive testing to verify that it is > >> accurate) > >> > >> The D-W and H-W calculation methods are simply approximations of how > >> fluids interact with themselves and the pipe they are in. The H-W > equation > >> and the K-factor concept are two VERY specialized cases that are > intended > >> only to describe warm water in pipes coming out of a smooth hole. > >> > >> The k-factor only relates the ease with which water can escape a > >> sprinkler. If you plug in a modified k-factor, you are still using H-W > to > >> describe how the fluid is moving through the pipes. The reason that you > >> have to switch to the D-W equation is because H-W will give you the > wrong > >> answer. If you use a modified K factor with H-W (instead of D-W) the > most > >> likely outcome is a wrong answer - although maybe not the same wrong > > answer > >> as before. > >> > >> Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II > >> Sales Engineer > >> Alliance Fire Protection > >> 130 w 9th Ave. > >> North Kansas City, MO 64116 > >> > >> *Licensed in KS & MO > >> > >> 913.888.0647 ph > >> 913.888.0618 f > >> 913.927.0222 cell > >> www. AFPsprink.com > >> > >> > >> > >> On Jun 11, 2013, at 7:52 AM, "Brad Casterline" <[email protected] > > > >> wrote: > >> > >>> From NFPA 13-2007, 22.4.4.5.1, we are required to, among other things, > >>> adjust the K-Factor. > >>> > >>> Using the Hazen-Williams friction formula, 62.4 lb/ft3 / 144 in2 = > .433 > >>> lb/in2/ft(h). > >>> > >>> If we have an AF solution at 65.5 lb/ft3, / 144 = .455 lb/in2/ft(h). > >>> > >>> If K=5.6, and we assume P=7 PSI.: > >>> > >>> 7/.433=16.166 ft(h). 7/.455=15.385 ft(h).* > >>> > >>> 15.385/16.166=.952. sqrt(.952)=.976, x 5.6 = 5.46. > >>> > >>> There is a chart in 13 showing a 50% glycerin solution at about -10F > >>> weighing about 15% more than 100% water: 62.4 x 1.15 = 71.76. > >>> 71.76/144=.498. 7/.498=14.056 ft(h). 14.056/16.166=.869. > >> sqrt(.869)=.932, x > >>> 5.6 = 5.22. > >>> > >>> If I had to fab the pipe today and formalize the submittal tomorrow > >> (after > >>> googling centipoises for several hours) I would calc it like it was > 'all > >>> wet', using K=5.22. > >>> > >>> * converting PSI to feet of head(h) it is seen that the denser the > >> solution, > >>> the 'shorter' it is. Since v=sqrt(2gh), the shorter it is the slower it > >> is. > >>> Making the adjustment based on "h", we have to take the square root of > >> the > >>> ratio, i.e., (K=Q/sqrtP). If adjusted based on velocity we would use > the > >>> ratio itself (square feet=cubic feet per second divided by feet per > >> second): > >>> sqrt(2*32.2*16.166)=32.266 ft/sec. > >>> > >>> sqrt(2*32.2*15.385)=31.477 ft/sec. > >>> > >>> 31.477/32.266=.976. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> The above is simply the type of thing I enjoy doing and like to share, > >>> hoping it will cause no harm, to be taken or left as one sees fit. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> thanks, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Brad Casterline, NICET IV > >>> > >>> Fire Protection Division > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> FSC, Inc. > >>> > >>> P: 913-722-3473 > >>> > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> www.fsc-inc.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > > > > > -- > > Ron Greenman > > (???????? ???? ????? 6 ??????) > > Instructor > > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > > Bates Technical College > > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > > > 253.680.7346 > > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > > > Member: > > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, > > essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
