No. The intent is not to pitot the output but to exercise the valve.
Sent from my iPhone On Jul 25, 2013, at 10:56 AM, Ron Greenman <[email protected]> wrote: > Forest. What were you flowing to discover these failures? Main drain or > some special test header? Would a sign with the data requested by the > customer that started this thread have had any utility in helping you > discover the problem? > > Then back to that perennial question of what's a "full flow " test and how > do you do one? I think Roland said the intent was to flow an equivalent to > the design discharge criteria. How do you do this? Do we run a pitot > somewhere on the system? Do we catch and measure discharge? If so, from > where? How do we arrange the test port(s)? Do we flow the design area or > simulate it elsewhere? Do we need results of at least or better flow or > right on the money flow? If not either of those how do we judge? > > Doesn't the hydraulic data plate note the required psi per the calcs at the > BOR and the static? Isn't the difference the residual drop at that point > relative to the design area? Wouldn't a main drain with good flow at a psi > around the BOR rating, and returning to close to the noted static when > terminated suggest a fully open valve, or an adequately open valve if the > UG is oversized? In the latter case the partially open valve is equivalent > to fully open for the system I just described. Am I missing something here? > An erroneous a priori? My understanding of hydraulics wrong? Main drains > are too small to simulate the result of all design area heads flowing as > the water passes through the BOR? > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:34 AM, Forest Wilson <[email protected]>wrote: > >> I still have the check valve from a Ames that failed to open. >> It was jammed shut, discovered when I was called out because they couldn't >> do the fire pump test. >> >> In another case, I tested a backflow and it failed (on a Best Buy store). >> I opened the valve up and the check was damaged, would only open a third. >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jul 24, 2013, at 8:53 PM, Ron Greenman <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Worked well for plumbing and process piping applications as they are >>> constantly being exercised. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Dwight Havens <[email protected] >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I do remember the ones with the rods in the center of the valve being >>>> particularly poor. >>>> >>>> Dwight >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 11:25 PM >>>> Subject: Re: SIGN for Backflow Prevention Assembly Forward Flow Test >>>> >>>> >>>> By the mid-nineties you have the early Ames models purpose built for >>>> sprinklers readily available, but many units being installed are still >> not >>>> listed for fire service as many jurisdictions don't consider the fire >> line >>>> a fire line until after the backflow, and a n on-listed device is >> cheaper >>>> than a listed one. Plus many go back to the seventies and many used >> weights >>>> instead of springs and complicated lever systems for joining the >> clappers >>>> and weights. Wish I could post a picture. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:33 PM, Dwight Havens <[email protected] >>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Give me a time frame. My best recollection is the mid '90's. >>>>> >>>>> Dwight >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 9:12 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: SIGN for Backflow Prevention Assembly Forward Flow Test >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Were these the plumbing type before fire service listed devices >> existed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Dwight Havens <[email protected] >>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yes, yes, and yes. The original proposal was based on observed >>>> failures >>>>>> of BFPAs to operate properly during main drain testing. >>>>>> >>>>>> Glendale, AZ public library specifically comes to mind. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dwight >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> From: Todd Williams <[email protected]> >>>>>> To: "[email protected]" < >>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 9:32 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: SIGN for Backflow Prevention Assembly Forward Flow Test >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Has there ever been an instance of system failure due to the backflow >>>> not >>>>>> properly opening? How about detection of a BFP problem during a full >>>> flow >>>>>> test. How about something subsequent to the initial acceptance? >>>>>> >>>>>> Todd G Williams, PE >>>>>> Fire Protection Design/Consulting >>>>>> Stonington, CT >>>>>> 860-535-2080 >>>>>> www.fpdc.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ron Greenman >>>>> Instructor >>>>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology >>>>> Bates Technical College >>>>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >>>>> Tacoma, WA 98405 >>>>> >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >>>>> >>>>> 253.680.7346 >>>>> 253.576.9700 (cell) >>>>> >>>>> Member: >>>>> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC >>>>> >>>>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >>>> Bacon, >>>>> essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ron Greenman >>>> Instructor >>>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology >>>> Bates Technical College >>>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >>>> Tacoma, WA 98405 >>>> >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >>>> >>>> 253.680.7346 >>>> 253.576.9700 (cell) >>>> >>>> Member: >>>> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC >>>> >>>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >> Bacon, >>>> essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ron Greenman >>> Instructor >>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology >>> Bates Technical College >>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >>> Tacoma, WA 98405 >>> >>> [email protected] >>> >>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >>> >>> 253.680.7346 >>> 253.576.9700 (cell) >>> >>> Member: >>> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC >>> >>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >> Bacon, >>> essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, > essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
