There WERE such coatings, for sure. Currently, there are 29 or 30 pipes on the market from 5 or 6 mills that are listed by FM and have been rigorously tested and affirmed by Lubrizol to be compatible. The 1st generation anti-microbial coatings are problematic, but new piping should be okay.
Steve L. -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Davidson Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:51 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Mixed Steel and CPVC Be very careful if the steel pipe was coated with anti-MIC coatings on the internal surface, and determine when the steel pipe was manufactured because there are anti-MIC coatings that are not compatibility with CPVC pipe and you need to research very carefully since Lubrizol did not fully test all anti-MIC coatings. The following is from Spears: SPEARS® MANUFACTURING COMPANY CORPORATE OFFICE 15853 OLDEN STREET * SYLMAR, CALIFORNIA 91342 MAILING ADDRESS: P.O. BOX 9203 * SYLMAR, CALIFORNIA 91392 Telephone (818) 364-1611 * Fax (818) 364-6945 www.spearsmfg.com Fire Sprinkler Systems with Anti-MIC Coated Metal Pipe CPVC piping has been successfully used in combination with copper or steel piping for many years when proper attention is given to cutting oils, thread sealants and other potentially incompatible materials that can cause Environmental Stress Cracking (ESC) in CPVC. However, certain Anti-Bacterial Corrosion coatings designed to prevent Microbiological Influenced Corrosion (MIC) that are applied as a lining to metal pipe are at the center of a major ESC problem concerning combination of CPVC with Metal fire sprinkler systems. It has been Spears'® experience that this issue is primarily concentrated around piping that has been coated with ABF® II or certain other aftermarket coatings applied in the field. Steel pipe manufacturers have indicated that with the changes to one CPVC material suppliers "compatibility program", liability has now shifted from the CPVC manufacturers to the contractor. In reality, nothing has changed with regard to liability. Each party (CPVC and Steel piping manufacturers, designers, contractors and owners) must all do their "due diligence", and continue to carry the same liability they always have. While Spears® Manufacturing Company has never provided a CPVC "compatibility program", information based on our testing and experience with the compatibility of products requested on a case by case basis has been readily provided. Based on conclusion of compatibility studies by FM Global in conjunction with Spears® ongoing test studies, Spears® accepts the following metal pipe products with factory applied MIC prevention coatings for use with Spears® FlameGuard® CPVC piping products: * Bull Moose Tube Company Eddy Guard II antimicrobial coated sprinkler pipe * Youngstown Tube Company YTC Guard® antimicrobial coated sprinkler pipe * Wheatland Tube Company MIC SHIELD(tm) sprinkler pipe * Allied Tube and Conduit metal fire sprinkler pipe coated with "M-Coat" This acceptance for use is contingent on the proper installation of each product with Spears® FlameGuard® CPVC products, in accordance with manufacturers' published installation instructions. Testing has shown these products to have satisfactory performance in normal installation of CPVC products. However, the potential for compatibility problems can be present in installations where CPVC materials are highly stressed. Such situations include but are not limited to, inadequate compensation for thermal expansion and contraction, excessive bending beyond specified limits, improper pipe hanger or anchor selection or installation, over tightening of threaded joints, and other improper CPVC installation practices yielding high stress loads. THE FACTS REMAIN: CPVC Nonmetallic Fire Sprinkler Systems offer significant advantages: No Rust, No Microbiologically Influenced Corrosion, Longer Service Life with Superior Flow, Ease of Installation and Overall Lower Cost of Ownership when compared to the alternative materials available. They are completely acceptable and intended for use in hybrid fire sprinkler piping systems when proper training, installation, and common sense prevail. FlameGuard® CPVC Fire Protection products manufactured by Spears® carry our standard Limited Lifetime Warranty. AMIC-7-041113 A Spears updaated approved products list is found at this web site: http://www.spearsmfg.com/flameguard/FGAPL-7_web.pdf This is for Spears products only so you will need to specifically check with each pipe manufacturer and be specific about the products you are asking questions about including the date of manufacturer. To add to the confusion this memo was found on the NFSA web site: Victaulic Memo Adds to CPVC Compatibility Controversy A memo circulated by the Victaulic Company on September 12th has added to controversy regarding compatibility of CPVC piping with the anti-microbial coatings provided for some steel sprinkler piping products. A copy of the Victaulic memo can be viewed at (need link here). The memo cites test results that contradict those previously reported by the Allied Tube and Lubrizol companies. According to Victaulic, an antimicrobial coating mixed with water "caused a hydrostatic pressure failure rate four times faster than baselines using water alone" in CPVC piping. Based on its testing, Victaulic is recommending that steel pipe with antimicrobial coatings not be used in combination with CPVC products until such time that an appropriate test protocol is developed that would allow issuance of a listing for such combination by a product listing laboratory. In the August 12, 2008 edition of eTechAlert, NFSA had offered the following advice to its contractor members: "Given that there is no effort under way to officially list these piping products as compatible, NFSA member contractors have asked for guidance as to whether they need to be concerned about the use of CPVC downstream of steel pipe protected with antimicrobial coatings. Common sense indicates that the potential for a problem is greatest when the CPVC is downstream of large amounts of coated steel pipe, and when stresses on the CPVC pipe are highest, such as in the case of high-rise buildings. As in many other areas of product usage, there are shades of gray that will ultimately be sorted out, but contractors must use their best judgment until that time." NFSA Executive Vice President Russ Fleming notes that if contractors are concerned that CPVC could be damaged by upstream steel pipe protected with anti-MIC coatings, they can either avoid the use of such piping arrangements or at least avoid the possibility that water from the steel piping flows through the CPVC piping. This could include the use of alarm test and drain connections located at the riser, such that water flowed for testing purposes does not pass through downstream CPVC. In such case, however, consideration should also be given to the manner in which the CPVC piping is initially filled and pressurized. As this controversy proceeds, NFSA is addressing it on several fronts. The NFSA engineering staff is participating in discussions at the NFPA Committee on Sprinkler Installation Criteria, and preliminary efforts in the area of testing protocols are being made through the NFSA/UL/FM Standards Review Committee. Additional reading go to : http://lubrizol-blazemaster-issues.com/ Have a fire safe day! Jim DAVIDSON ASSOCIATES Fire Protection Engineering P. O. Box 4010 Code Consultants Greenville, DE 19807-0010 Medical Gas Systems Engineering (302) 994-9500 Fax (302) 994-3414 CONFIDENTIALITY This report and any attachments are confidential and also may be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, or have otherwise received this report in error, please destroy the report, notify the sender immediately, and do not disclose its contents to any other person, use them for any purpose, or store or copy them in any medium. Thank you for your cooperation. -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cahill, Christopher Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 1:30 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Mixed Steel and CPVC Yep, I did go there and that's why I asked because they say "If an ancillary product is to come into direct contact with a FlowGuard pipe & fittings system, BlazeMaster fire Sprinkler system and/or Corzan industrial system and is not included in the FBCT System Compatible Program, Lubrizol recommends that chemical compatibility be confirmed with that product's manufacturer prior to use." Direct contact being the key I think. There doesn't appear to be incompatible cutting oils. Several tested ok. FM approval for pipe internally coated pipes so that seems like less of a problem. There are several sealants not compatible and a few that are compatible. All that is well a good except I can't see anything about indirect contamination. So if the existing system has known incompatibles or unknowns is that direct contact? If I drill on a saddle probably don't use any cutting oil. If I use the right thread sealant on the new work no problem. What if any oil is left from the original installation, probably not much if any. Is the thread sealant, assuming incompatible or unknown, on the original heads, but not in contact with CPVC directly, ok? Chris Cahill, PE* Associate Fire Protection Engineer Burns & McDonnell Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 [email protected] www.burnsmcd.com *Registered in: MN Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work For -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of rongreenman . Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:23 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Mixed Steel and CPVC Go to Lubrizol and you can find info on this. Simple answer is yea, problem. Mitigation,??????? On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Cahill, Christopher <[email protected]> wrote: > I've been out of the CPVC world for many years now. I noticed a > system the other day with what I guess is original steel and > remodeling with CPVC. I was wondering if there are any reasons that is a bad > idea? > Contamination of the CPVC with cutting oil, thread sealant, etc. line > of thinking. > > Chris Cahill, PE* > Associate Fire Protection Engineer > Burns & McDonnell > Phone: 952.656.3652 > Fax: 952.229.2923 > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > www.burnsmcd.com<http://www.burnsmcd.com/> > *Registered in: MN > > > Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work > For > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
