If walls were intended to be applied as a bounding variable the standard would state it as such. 13 says to calculate the most demanding rectangle (or shape similar to it since the BL furthest upstream typically has few sprinklers). That applies only to the PORTION of the building applying the assigned design basis (since a single system can have different areas of the floor with a different design basis). IT doesn’t matter what the rating level is (as long as it is not a fire wall separating two buildings within one structure). The exception is the aforementioned room design method.
This methodology intentionally ignores the reality of fire growth (as does much of the process) so we can easily define the pathway of piping that creates the largest demand. That way we know activation of sprinklers for other arrangements (that do follow reality) will be less demanding. So don’t over think it and embrace the simplicity. This is for new installations. When modifying an existing system, have a discussion with the AHJ about why it makes sense to apply the reality of fire/heat spread and the interface with walls. As a member of the NFPA 13 technical committee, I must say that this is my opinion (and I’ll venture to say all the rest of the TC members would concur) and is not to be considered a formal interpretation of NFPA or any of its technical committees. Roland Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org On Oct 22, 2014, at 8:27 AM, Brian Harris <[email protected]> wrote: > My original question was not about Room Design, I was asking if interior > walls came into play when laying out a remote area using the Design Density > method. Thanks! > > Brian Harris, CET > BVS Systems Inc. > bvssytemsinc.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:22 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Remote Area & Walls > > I apologize, I missed the "room design" when I read through originally. My > statement was for Density/Area. > > Thanks, > > Sean Van Gaal > Project Manager > Nicet III Water-Based System Layout #124801 > P: (623) 580-7818 > C: (602) 400-4512 > F: (623) 434-3154 > [email protected] > > AERO Automatic Sprinkler Co. > 21605 N. Central Ave. > Phoenix, AZ, 85024 > (623) 580-7800 > aerofire.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Daniel Wilder > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 8:17 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Remote Area & Walls > > 13' 13ed > > 11.2.3.3.3 To utilize the room design method, all rooms shall be enclosed > with walls having a fire-resistance rating equal to the water supply duration > indicated in Table 11.2.3.1.2. > > going into 11.2.3.3.5 for non-rated OR self-closing doors...and with > unprotected openings (with & without an 8" lintel) for the light hazard side > to include an additional 2 heads outside the space > > OH & EH require automatic or self-closing doors with a rating equal to the > water supply duration requirements. > > Walls and doors/openings come into play > > Dan W > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 7:26 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Remote Area & Walls > > Although I do not think it is expressly stated, I've used the hose durations > on the determining factor on if I have to go through fire rated walls. If > you have a light hazard occupancy with a 30min hose stream duration > requirement, I don't see why you should be expected to calculate heads on the > other side that rated wall. However if you have and OH1 hazard, you should > calculate through the 1hr rated wall but not a 2+hr rating. > > Thanks, > > Sean Van Gaal > Project Manager > Nicet III Water-Based System Layout #124801 > P: (623) 580-7818 > C: (602) 400-4512 > F: (623) 434-3154 > [email protected] > > AERO Automatic Sprinkler Co. > 21605 N. Central Ave. > Phoenix, AZ, 85024 > (623) 580-7800 > aerofire.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:37 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Remote Area & Walls > > Brian, > > From what I remember, it doesn't matter. Of course, nothing is ever 'black & > white' so there could be several scenarios where the fire walls and their > rating might matter. Unless it was going into an area with a different > occupancy, I would err on the conservative side and be sure I was using the > most demanding area and ignore the walls. > > Others may have a more 'un-official' stance or different opinion. > > Cliff Whitfield, SET > President > Fire Design, Inc. > Ph: 719-488-3479 > > > > [email protected] > www.fire-design.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Brian Harris > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 7:31 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Remote Area & Walls > > Cliff- > What about Fire Rated walls? > > Brian Harris, CET > BVS Systems Inc. > bvssytemsinc.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 9:29 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Remote Area & Walls > > Brian, > > Don't have the book in front of me, but this is correct. You would only take > the interior walls into account if you were using the 'Room Design Method'. > > Cliff Whitfield, SET > President > Fire Design, Inc. > Ph: 719-488-3479 > > > > [email protected] > www.fire-design.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Brian Harris > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 7:15 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Remote Area & Walls > > Apparently sometime in the night the code gremlins snuck in my office and > removed pages from my book because I swear I remember reading that when > laying out the remote area you do not take into account interior walls but > now I can't find it. Anybody? > > Brian Harris, CET > BVS Systems Inc. > Sprinkler Division > bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/> > Phone: 704.896.9989 > Fax: 704.896.1935 > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
