I was going to say OH2 early on until I saw some deeper thinking than I'm capable of going on. I did have an AHJ require a self serve gas station canopy to be sprinkled and that's just what they prescribed: OH2.
On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:28 AM, rongreenman . <[email protected]> wrote: > But we all know SFPE was founded by Chicken Little. > > On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 6:16 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Manual activation would be essential and is typically a requirement per > > the applicable system Standard. > > > > Gotta keep it light hearted, we all have opinions and they can differ, no > > need in raising blood pressure over a difference of opinion. We are here > > to learn and teach. If that's not the goal, we have no reason for > > participating. > > > > And I still think laser guided foam cannons are cool despite what Leyton > > thinks. :) > > > > > > Found this while doing some other research. What's interesting is that > > dry chem is not mentioned even though it tends to be the dominant system > > used for this application. > > > > SFPE Engineering Handbook pg. 4-124, 7. Automotive service station > filling > > areas (see NFPA 30A) - Protection Reference - NFPA 11 - Foam Spray. > > Objective Classification of Fire Problems for Foam Agent Fire Protection > > The following objectives identify five performance areas for evaluating > > foam agent fire protection. Performance objectives may be combined for > > specific problem situations. These objectives form important > considerations > > for the hydraulic design of foam agent systems. > > > > Objective 5: Protect, prevent, control, and extinguish fire problems in > > selected special hazards. > > In addition to the other specified objectives, foam fire extinguishing > > agents provide appropriate fire protection for numerous special hazard > > problems. Some important special hazard conditions that are suitable for > > foam fire protection are included in the following list: (See also Table > > 4-5.1.) > > Dike areas > > Engine test cells > > Transformers > > Engine rooms > > Laboratories using chemicals > > Aircraft hangars > > Nuclear research reactors > > High density storage of combustibles > > Rubber tires > > Rack container storage of aerosols > > Loading racks > > Automotive service station filling areas > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > Ovens and furnaces > > > > Craig L. Prahl > > Fire Protection Group Lead/SME > > CH2MHILL > > Lockwood Greene > > 1500 International Drive > > Spartanburg, SC 29303 > > Direct - 864.599.4102 > > Fax - 864.599.8439 > > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > > [email protected] > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat > Thompson > > Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 6:17 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps > > > > Very interesting thread. I appreciate the thought process and even the > > 'tongue in cheek' comments from the forum. > > > > My 3c would be that any system that is intended for use in this > > application have a means to manually activate it. Sprinkler protection > with > > or without foam using closed heads won't cut it. > > > > Here's why I bring this up; situation a few years back in a commercial > > cooking operation. Fire starts on the cookline and occupants sustain > > injuries trying to fight it with portable extinguishers (Class B dry chem > > at the time). Those who have ever stepped foot into a commercial kitchen > > understand the slippery nature of the floor. Anyway, the automatic system > > never operated despite flames roaring up from the appliances. Fire was > > eventually controlled with the use of the extinguishers. > > > > This problem stemmed from the fact that the cookline, plenum, and duct > had > > sprinkler protection (recently inspected and code compliant). Occupant > > pulled the 'pull station' located on the SS cabinet related to the fire > > system, this activated protection plenum and the alarms but had no effect > > on the appliance fire. Result - black eye for fire protection. > > > > Simple solution: a system that has manual operation; i.e. dry or wet > > chemical - as suits the application. Or of course for the deluge type > > system suggested by others a manual pull station to start the discharge. > > > > > > Pat Thompson > > ATS Alaska > > Direct: 907-375-4176 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 12:28 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps > > > > I didn't get it, had it all along. :) My oscillating cannons were an > > attempt at sarcastic humor. > > > > In the mean time I've got to get back to detailing protection for those > OH > > III Slurpee Machines at those gas stations since they're gonna let the > > canopies go up in flames, got to protect at least one sure fire revenue > > source............. > > > > > > Craig L. Prahl > > Fire Protection Group Lead/SME > > CH2MHILL > > Lockwood Greene > > 1500 International Drive > > Spartanburg, SC 29303 > > Direct - 864.599.4102 > > Fax - 864.599.8439 > > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > > [email protected] > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve > Leyton > > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 4:08 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps > > > > Finally, he gets it. And BTW, oscillating cannons are total overkill - > > we've used fixed monitors successfully on several projects. > > > > You raise an interesting point on the question of non-metallic cars, but > > let's also keep an eye out for a wave of fire incident reports on vehicle > > fires that aren't controlled by OH1 sprinklers. When there's a pandemic > > rate of occurrence, we should revisit that. > > > > SL > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 1:01 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps > > > > Foam-water deluge with autonomous, GPS interfaced, thermal seeking, > > oscillating high pressure foam cannons, go large or go home. ;) > > > > Seriously, if a client specifies a certain system and chooses not to heed > > your alternative recommendations, you provide it as requested since > they're > > paying for it and they are paying you to design it. > > > > I wonder how long ago that 0.15 criteria was developed? Probably when > > cars were mostly steel? For today's plastic cars I doubt that would have > > much affect then add Hybrids with batteries. > > > > Craig L. Prahl > > Fire Protection Group Lead/SME > > CH2MHILL > > Lockwood Greene > > 1500 International Drive > > Spartanburg, SC 29303 > > Direct - 864.599.4102 > > Fax - 864.599.8439 > > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > > [email protected] > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve > Leyton > > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 3:06 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps > > > > Those are nice pictures. Many of them don't actually show fires at > > filling stations (at least one shows a collision with a tanker truck). > > Those that do include a lot of vehicle fires and many of those are > outside > > of the area of the canopy. If you go to NFPA's website, you'll find at > > least a couple pages that underscore that this is a low > rate-of-occurrence > > event and that 61% of these fires are classified as vehicle fires (back > to > > OH1 are we?). Look, I don't want anyone to think I've lost my > passionate > > concern for public safety, but there is a cost-benefit equation to just > > about everything, including the standards we use every day. I think > that > > the information I've seen on The Internets (including what's to be > inferred > > from the Google images of gas station fires) underscores what I said > > yesterday. It's not a compelling risk from the perspective that it's > not a > > high percentage risk of occurrence, and it's definitely not a flammable > > liquids storage issue. > > > > If anyone out there wants to pay for a foam suppression system, I will > NOT > > discourage them, but if I were their consultant I would not be > programming > > one on their behalf. > > > > > > > http://www.nfpa.org/safety-information/for-consumers/vehicles/service-station-safety > > > > > > > http://www.nfpa.org/research/reports-and-statistics/fires-by-property-type/business-and-mercantile/fires-at-us-service-stations > > > > > > SL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of David > > Blackwell > > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 11:54 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps > > > > Google "gas station fire" and select the images tab to see some big gas > > station fires. [If you don't select "images" the top story is about "Man > > trying to kill spider ignites gas pump fire - CNN Video"] > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > David W. S. Blackwell, II, PE, CFPE, CFI I Chief Engineer Office of State > > Fire Marshal SC Department of Labor, Licensing, & Regulation, 141 > > Monticello Trail, Columbia, SC 29203 > > Telephone: 803.896.9800 [Office] 803.896.9833 [Direct] > > Fax: 803.896.9806 [Office] > > Email: [email protected] > > Website: http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/ > > > > > > Please note that you can find a lot of information on our website at > > http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/ including contact information, > > current events, laws, regulations, policies, forms, procedures, and links > > to other website resources for further information. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve > Leyton > > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 5:19 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps > > > > *** SCDLLR NOTICE *** This email is from an external email address. > Please > > use caution when deciding whether to open any attachments or when > clicking > > links inside the email. > > > > EXACTLY. None of us has ever seen a gas station fire in all likelihood > > because the equipment is equipped with so many fail-safety devices and so > > long as idiots aren't smoking or lighting incense as they refuel, it's > very > > low risk, empirically speaking. If there's a fire on the ground, how > well > > does a canopy trap heat? With no walls, the horizontal movement of > > byproducts is going to be fairly high-velocity, no? Unless you have some > > fire modeling or test data in hand, your and my guesses are the best > we're > > going to have with regard to the chances of sprinklers skipping or even > > operating at all. The AHJ is probably requiring sprinklers for the > reason > > you state - so he/she can sleep at night, so give them sprinklers. > > > > As to the use of foam by responders, I think everyone would agree that > > there's a significant difference in the metrics of programming operations > > in a muni fire department than in the cost-benefit analysis of a fixed > foam > > extinguishing system and the impact it would have on the design of the > > protected premises. Water has been successfully fire tested in flammable > > liquids fires, from mist to ESFR. So if the AHJ wants sprinklers, give > > them "sprinklers". > > > > SL > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 2:04 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps > > > > Wow, really? What is that stuff the guys in the red trucks spray on > > liquid fuel spills and over car fires? > > > > Hate to disagree but OH I is even questionable for a parking garage > > regardless of what NPFA says and for a gas station well it's just silly. > > I've never seen a little gas station fire. > > > > But at the end of the day you do what allows you to sleep at night. > > > > Craig L. Prahl > > Fire Protection Group Lead/SME > > CH2MHILL > > Lockwood Greene > > 1500 International Drive > > Spartanburg, SC 29303 > > Direct - 864.599.4102 > > Fax - 864.599.8439 > > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > > [email protected] > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve > Leyton > > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 4:51 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps > > > > Please, stop. This is NOT flammable liquids storage. Foam and wind > > effect and all this other stuff is Henny-Penny-the-sky-is-falling > > distraction (IMHO). 7.3.5.2 of 30A states, " Where required, an automatic > > fire suppression system shall be installed in accordance with the > > appropriate NFPA standard, manufacturer's instructions, and the listing > > requirements of the systems. Obviously, NFPA 13 doesn't have a > > prescriptive for fuel island canopies, so let's use some common sense. > > The fuel is stored in UG tanks away from the islands and retail store or > > cashiers hut. NFPA 30 doesn't apply as this isn't storage, but Chapter > 18 > > states that when a hose is used in the transfer of F/C liquids as part of > > an "incidental operation", it shall be equipped with a self-closing > valve. > > That's what a automotive fuel hose does - it's a dead man that kicks off > > from several triggers including back pressure and impact. So the movie > > scene of a guy having a heart attack and squirting a steady stream of > fuel > > into the air as a crow drops a burning cigarette butt into the pool is > ... > > far-fetched. At most, we can reasonable expect that there could be a > quart > > of gasoline on the ground if there's an accident, so we would be > protecting > > for that and the cars at the island that are ostensibly full or nearly > full > > of fuel. Just like in an OH 1 parking garage. > > > > OH 2 if it's a month ending in Y ... my 3ยข. > > > > SL > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 10:25 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps > > > > This is outside the purview of NFPA 13. > > > > You're dealing with flammable and combustible liquids, hydrocarbons on > > which water alone will have limited affect. > > > > For fuel loading/unloading stations it is common to employ foam-water > > deluge for the area below the canopy. > > > > Also an option is dry chemical. Pyrochem has a system called ATTENDANT > II > > (distributed by Tyco) > > > > The HAJ would have to approve either one but more tend to lean towards a > > sprinklered solution than a one-shot gaseous system. A very windy day > > could totally render a gaseous extinguishing system useless. > > > > For design you do need to consider wind effect on your system discharge. > > Don't get swayed into the minimum .16 gpm/sf permitted on foam-water > > systems. You can have coverage issues again due to wind influences. > > > > NFPA 30, NFPA 30A, NFPA 16 and NFPA 2001 are good places to start. > > > > Good luck and have fun! > > > > Craig L. Prahl > > Fire Protection Group Lead/SME > > CH2MHILL > > Lockwood Greene > > 1500 International Drive > > Spartanburg, SC 29303 > > Direct - 864.599.4102 > > Fax - 864.599.8439 > > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > > [email protected] > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of James > > Crawford > > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 1:04 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Canopies Over gads Pumps > > > > Looking for some direction on the protection of a Gas Service station > > canopy over the gas pumps. > > > > > > > > We have an AHJ that want the canopy protected, but I can't find anything > > that outlines the protection requirements for this area. My first thought > > is Extra Hazard group 1. > > > > > > > > Can someone point me in the right direction > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > > > > > James Crawford > > > > Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. > > > > Phone 604-888-0318 > > > > Fax 604-888-4732 > > > > Cel 604-790-0938 > > > > Email [email protected] > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, > essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, > inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
