Manual activation would be essential and is typically a requirement per the applicable system Standard.
Gotta keep it light hearted, we all have opinions and they can differ, no need in raising blood pressure over a difference of opinion. We are here to learn and teach. If that's not the goal, we have no reason for participating. And I still think laser guided foam cannons are cool despite what Leyton thinks. :) Found this while doing some other research. What's interesting is that dry chem is not mentioned even though it tends to be the dominant system used for this application. SFPE Engineering Handbook pg. 4-124, 7. Automotive service station filling areas (see NFPA 30A) - Protection Reference - NFPA 11 - Foam Spray. Objective Classification of Fire Problems for Foam Agent Fire Protection The following objectives identify five performance areas for evaluating foam agent fire protection. Performance objectives may be combined for specific problem situations. These objectives form important considerations for the hydraulic design of foam agent systems. Objective 5: Protect, prevent, control, and extinguish fire problems in selected special hazards. In addition to the other specified objectives, foam fire extinguishing agents provide appropriate fire protection for numerous special hazard problems. Some important special hazard conditions that are suitable for foam fire protection are included in the following list: (See also Table 4-5.1.) Dike areas Engine test cells Transformers Engine rooms Laboratories using chemicals Aircraft hangars Nuclear research reactors High density storage of combustibles Rubber tires Rack container storage of aerosols Loading racks Automotive service station filling areas <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Ovens and furnaces Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29303 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Thompson Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 6:17 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps Very interesting thread. I appreciate the thought process and even the 'tongue in cheek' comments from the forum. My 3c would be that any system that is intended for use in this application have a means to manually activate it. Sprinkler protection with or without foam using closed heads won't cut it. Here's why I bring this up; situation a few years back in a commercial cooking operation. Fire starts on the cookline and occupants sustain injuries trying to fight it with portable extinguishers (Class B dry chem at the time). Those who have ever stepped foot into a commercial kitchen understand the slippery nature of the floor. Anyway, the automatic system never operated despite flames roaring up from the appliances. Fire was eventually controlled with the use of the extinguishers. This problem stemmed from the fact that the cookline, plenum, and duct had sprinkler protection (recently inspected and code compliant). Occupant pulled the 'pull station' located on the SS cabinet related to the fire system, this activated protection plenum and the alarms but had no effect on the appliance fire. Result - black eye for fire protection. Simple solution: a system that has manual operation; i.e. dry or wet chemical - as suits the application. Or of course for the deluge type system suggested by others a manual pull station to start the discharge. Pat Thompson ATS Alaska Direct: 907-375-4176 -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 12:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps I didn't get it, had it all along. :) My oscillating cannons were an attempt at sarcastic humor. In the mean time I've got to get back to detailing protection for those OH III Slurpee Machines at those gas stations since they're gonna let the canopies go up in flames, got to protect at least one sure fire revenue source............. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29303 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 4:08 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps Finally, he gets it. And BTW, oscillating cannons are total overkill - we've used fixed monitors successfully on several projects. You raise an interesting point on the question of non-metallic cars, but let's also keep an eye out for a wave of fire incident reports on vehicle fires that aren't controlled by OH1 sprinklers. When there's a pandemic rate of occurrence, we should revisit that. SL -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 1:01 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps Foam-water deluge with autonomous, GPS interfaced, thermal seeking, oscillating high pressure foam cannons, go large or go home. ;) Seriously, if a client specifies a certain system and chooses not to heed your alternative recommendations, you provide it as requested since they're paying for it and they are paying you to design it. I wonder how long ago that 0.15 criteria was developed? Probably when cars were mostly steel? For today's plastic cars I doubt that would have much affect then add Hybrids with batteries. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29303 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 3:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps Those are nice pictures. Many of them don't actually show fires at filling stations (at least one shows a collision with a tanker truck). Those that do include a lot of vehicle fires and many of those are outside of the area of the canopy. If you go to NFPA's website, you'll find at least a couple pages that underscore that this is a low rate-of-occurrence event and that 61% of these fires are classified as vehicle fires (back to OH1 are we?). Look, I don't want anyone to think I've lost my passionate concern for public safety, but there is a cost-benefit equation to just about everything, including the standards we use every day. I think that the information I've seen on The Internets (including what's to be inferred from the Google images of gas station fires) underscores what I said yesterday. It's not a compelling risk from the perspective that it's not a high percentage risk of occurrence, and it's definitely not a flammable liquids storage issue. If anyone out there wants to pay for a foam suppression system, I will NOT discourage them, but if I were their consultant I would not be programming one on their behalf. http://www.nfpa.org/safety-information/for-consumers/vehicles/service-station-safety http://www.nfpa.org/research/reports-and-statistics/fires-by-property-type/business-and-mercantile/fires-at-us-service-stations SL -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David Blackwell Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 11:54 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps Google "gas station fire" and select the images tab to see some big gas station fires. [If you don't select "images" the top story is about "Man trying to kill spider ignites gas pump fire - CNN Video"] Respectfully, David W. S. Blackwell, II, PE, CFPE, CFI I Chief Engineer Office of State Fire Marshal SC Department of Labor, Licensing, & Regulation, 141 Monticello Trail, Columbia, SC 29203 Telephone: 803.896.9800 [Office] 803.896.9833 [Direct] Fax: 803.896.9806 [Office] Email: [email protected] Website: http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/ Please note that you can find a lot of information on our website at http://www.scfiremarshal.llronline.com/ including contact information, current events, laws, regulations, policies, forms, procedures, and links to other website resources for further information. -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 5:19 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps *** SCDLLR NOTICE *** This email is from an external email address. Please use caution when deciding whether to open any attachments or when clicking links inside the email. EXACTLY. None of us has ever seen a gas station fire in all likelihood because the equipment is equipped with so many fail-safety devices and so long as idiots aren't smoking or lighting incense as they refuel, it's very low risk, empirically speaking. If there's a fire on the ground, how well does a canopy trap heat? With no walls, the horizontal movement of byproducts is going to be fairly high-velocity, no? Unless you have some fire modeling or test data in hand, your and my guesses are the best we're going to have with regard to the chances of sprinklers skipping or even operating at all. The AHJ is probably requiring sprinklers for the reason you state - so he/she can sleep at night, so give them sprinklers. As to the use of foam by responders, I think everyone would agree that there's a significant difference in the metrics of programming operations in a muni fire department than in the cost-benefit analysis of a fixed foam extinguishing system and the impact it would have on the design of the protected premises. Water has been successfully fire tested in flammable liquids fires, from mist to ESFR. So if the AHJ wants sprinklers, give them "sprinklers". SL -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 2:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps Wow, really? What is that stuff the guys in the red trucks spray on liquid fuel spills and over car fires? Hate to disagree but OH I is even questionable for a parking garage regardless of what NPFA says and for a gas station well it's just silly. I've never seen a little gas station fire. But at the end of the day you do what allows you to sleep at night. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29303 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 4:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps Please, stop. This is NOT flammable liquids storage. Foam and wind effect and all this other stuff is Henny-Penny-the-sky-is-falling distraction (IMHO). 7.3.5.2 of 30A states, " Where required, an automatic fire suppression system shall be installed in accordance with the appropriate NFPA standard, manufacturer's instructions, and the listing requirements of the systems. Obviously, NFPA 13 doesn't have a prescriptive for fuel island canopies, so let's use some common sense. The fuel is stored in UG tanks away from the islands and retail store or cashiers hut. NFPA 30 doesn't apply as this isn't storage, but Chapter 18 states that when a hose is used in the transfer of F/C liquids as part of an "incidental operation", it shall be equipped with a self-closing valve. That's what a automotive fuel hose does - it's a dead man that kicks off from several triggers including back pressure and impact. So the movie scene of a guy having a heart attack and squirting a steady stream of fuel into the air as a crow drops a burning cigarette butt into the pool is ... far-fetched. At most, we can reasonable expect that there could be a quart of gasoline on the ground if there's an accident, so we would be protecting for that and the cars at the island that are ostensibly full or nearly full of fuel. Just like in an OH 1 parking garage. OH 2 if it's a month ending in Y ... my 3¢. SL -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 10:25 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps This is outside the purview of NFPA 13. You're dealing with flammable and combustible liquids, hydrocarbons on which water alone will have limited affect. For fuel loading/unloading stations it is common to employ foam-water deluge for the area below the canopy. Also an option is dry chemical. Pyrochem has a system called ATTENDANT II (distributed by Tyco) The HAJ would have to approve either one but more tend to lean towards a sprinklered solution than a one-shot gaseous system. A very windy day could totally render a gaseous extinguishing system useless. For design you do need to consider wind effect on your system discharge. Don't get swayed into the minimum .16 gpm/sf permitted on foam-water systems. You can have coverage issues again due to wind influences. NFPA 30, NFPA 30A, NFPA 16 and NFPA 2001 are good places to start. Good luck and have fun! Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29303 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of James Crawford Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 1:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Canopies Over gads Pumps Looking for some direction on the protection of a Gas Service station canopy over the gas pumps. We have an AHJ that want the canopy protected, but I can't find anything that outlines the protection requirements for this area. My first thought is Extra Hazard group 1. Can someone point me in the right direction Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. 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