In a fire scenario if the automatic preaction sprinkler system didn’t operate due to some sort of malfunction, I would think the FD would just treat the premises like an unprotected building instead of worrying about trying to find a means to manually actuate the system. Ain’t nobody got time for dat.
How would you distinguish a fire alarm pull station at an egress path from a system actuation manual pull station? In an emergency what person is going to stop to read and figure out which one does what? Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2M 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 Direct - 864.920.7540 Fax - 864.920.7129 CH2MHILL Extension 77540 [email protected] From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kenneth Berman Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 5:05 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pre action pull station I agree this was an anomalous event, but see no harm in having a remote manual pull at the area being covered. This happens to avoid potential troubles. This isn't the only maintenance man looking to refill lines quickly with the main pump, even though expressly forbidden by codes. Much like a cooking exhaust hood system, during a fire event, I don't have time to find the riser room, find door key, and then manually trip the system. Why not have a manual pull at the door of egress? On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 9:31 AM, rongreenman . <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I'm not sure about the anomaly guiding the design. We've had one 9/11 event and got TSA. We had one guy with a shoe bomb and everyone gets to take their shoes off. We have three thousand deaths a year fro fires, mostly in SFDs, and we're told sprinkling is too expensive. We have a quarter million os so smoking related deaths per year and subsidize the tobacco companies. How much do we subsidize the airlines to pay for TSA so w can feel safe in the safest mode of transportation, miles per person, we have? On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 1:37 AM, Kenneth Berman <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: consider a remote manual pull station to give enough volume of trim piping to allow for pressure drop , even if you only loose a few drops through the check valve, because of pressure loss in the supply piping. Loss of underground pressure resulted in a pressure drop, back through the priming line, that set off an open head AFFF system in a building of ink tanks in KY. The trim piping held such a small volume that a couple drops was enough for the reliable deluge valve to trip, when the underground pressure was returned. Reliable supplied us with a top of the line silicone spring loaded plug check valve and it still lost a few pounds. A remote manual pull at the tanks gave enough volume to maintain the pressure to keep the valve set-up. This problem showed up because the maintenance man was filling the underground lines utilizing the main electric pump to speed up filling time. The priming line couldn't repressurize the priming chamber fast enough to keep the valve "safe". On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 4:33 PM, <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: If you have smoke detection you have an electrical interface with the P.A. system, so the pull station could be electrical as well as you can by a P.A. trim for electrical actuation. Also it's common for the electrician to install fire alarm and detection components if there is not a specific fire alarm contractor. There's a lot of info missing but installing a manual pull at the riser is for service work as well, makes it real easy to test the valve tripping mechanisms to be sure everything works as it should from the mechanical side of things. We might also assume that the installer is working from a set of plans telling him where to install it, instead of him just arbitrarily putting it wherever he felt like it. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2M 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 Direct - 864.920.7540<tel:864.920.7540> Fax - 864.920.7129<tel:864.920.7129> CH2MHILL Extension 77540 [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of Charles Thurston Sent: Monday, May 09, 2016 5:24 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: Pre action pull station Hello Todd, Better question is WHY is an electrician installing something that is not electrical? > > 2007 NFPA 13, 7.3.1.2 The automatic water control valve shall be > > provided with hydraulic, pneumatic, or mechanical manual means for > > operation that is independent of detection devices and of the > > sprinklers. Monday, May 9, 2016, 5:04:55 PM, you wrote: > It is interesting that an electrician is by default the one selecting > the best location for a device that is only intended to be used during > a fire. And only when the integrated system has failed, and fire has > been burning for some time prior to FD arrival. > So expect that smoke is accumulating in the building. Can FF's safely > get to activating device, and recognize it once there? > This assume the FD is trained well enough to recognize the situation > and understand manually activating system will almost always be the > highest suppression (water application) activity. > Are there facilities that also have it in their fire watch plan to > activate system when they know detection system is down? > Does having a Journeyman A electrical card make you the best person to choose > location? > Bruce Verhei > On May 9, 2016, at 13:18, Todd Williams > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > The electrician installed it at the riser and the client asked if this was > correct. > Todd G Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, CT > 860-535-2080<tel:860-535-2080> (ofc) > 860-608-4559<tel:860-608-4559> (cell) > Sent using CloudMagic > On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 3:46 PM, rongreenman . > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Typically a valve at the rider. Are you looking for the manual > release for a particular riser or a rule as to where it has to be? > On Monday, May 9, 2016, Todd Williams > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> ANy information on location? >> Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT >> 860-535-2080<tel:860-535-2080> (ofc) 860-608-4559<tel:860-608-4559> (cell) >> Sent using CloudMagic [ >> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti&cv=6.0.64&pv=8.2] >> On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 3:13 PM, rongreenman . >> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> >> wrote: >> Typically they're part of the listed trim package. >> On Monday, May 9, 2016, <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> >> wrote: >> > 2007 NFPA 13, 7.3.1.2 The automatic water control valve shall be >> > provided with hydraulic, pneumatic, or mechanical manual means for >> > operation that is independent of detection devices and of the >> > sprinklers. >> > >> > >> > Craig L. Prahl >> > Fire Protection Group Lead/SME >> > CH2M >> > 200 Verdae Blvd. >> > Greenville, SC 29607 >> > Direct - 864.920.7540<tel:864.920.7540> >> > Fax - 864.920.7129<tel:864.920.7129> >> > CH2MHILL Extension 77540 >> > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <javascript:;> >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >> > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> > <javascript:;>] On >> > Behalf Of Todd Williams >> > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2016 2:33 PM >> > To: >> > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> > <javascript:;> >> > Subject: Pre action pull station >> > >> > I'm looking for guidelines for manual pull stations on pre-action >> systems. >> > Any idea where they are? >> > >> > Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, >> > CT >> > 860-535-2080<tel:860-535-2080> (ofc) 860-608-4559<tel:860-608-4559> >> > (cell) Sent using CloudMagic [ >> > >> >> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1Kt0u0GJLzxwwb7MCDiEPqnzAIXRuh45mBuCy231 >> KCQjUADAmsbstorfcS2u3cmf6VWoWnAPNKp1CfWgx57bhXLRwziiio3szpVlEoirXjlRl >> aErxlmvOu9DRsancbU-wiLuZyxJzb9c-_ux8HhslMBhQAOxR32puEEiFLLjijqv9fIICy >> _QU3maQJSPCR-iLU5CnzUTUvoxXYCJxJwTjbzkG_0V3gb-9cVyCd-xzc-L8H0xmaKv7fb >> QWffYiW3G6xSDLbfEVTL3ngXgWNMUiUUNOy2UamgyBurOD7v2Wt9I-zYfsXH7PVWqALSf >> RsvE3Rf_lEI6FNrK4RvyxIQd0B8-EQlft0ObsBsbh3PfyC9LvGZtVQnopiXWExly-erED >> 5q-PLKR67YG4Se_JKujfY-IlabVTdjbDhH2DKOjWuzUFHnWAYGtth_N5_OKKm0kwtOJsC >> CikyFoSnFz1Cgak_Q/https%3A%2F%2Fcloudmagic.com%2Fk%2Fd%2Fmailapp%3Fct >> %3Dti%26cv%3D6.0.64%26pv%3D8.2%5D > >> _______________________________________________ >> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >> > >> > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> > <javascript:;> >> > >> > >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> ler.org<http://ler.org> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >> > >> > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> > <javascript:;> >> > >> > >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> ler.org<http://ler.org> >> > >> -- >> Sent from Gmail Mobile >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >> scrubbed... >> URL: < >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >> er.org/attachments/20160509/ea1fbf6a/attachment.htm<http://er.org/attachments/20160509/ea1fbf6a/attachment.htm> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> ler.org<http://ler.org> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >> scrubbed... >> URL: < >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >> er.org/attachments/20160509/7e6e19c7/attachment.htm<http://er.org/attachments/20160509/7e6e19c7/attachment.htm> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> ler.org<http://ler.org> > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org/attachments/20160509/6f8d881a/attachment.htm<http://er.org/attachments/20160509/6f8d881a/attachment.htm>> > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org<http://er.org> > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org<http://er.org> > -- Best regards, Charles mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- Ron Greenman 4110 Olson Dr., NW Gig Harbor, WA 98335 [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 253.576.9700<tel:253.576.9700> A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. 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