20.3 is an alternative to the Chapter 16 and Chapter 17 requirements for "Big Box" retail stores; likely as another way to avoid in-rack sprinklers.
The ".shall be permitted." in paragraph 20.3.1 is key. The designer has the option of using the provisions of 20.3.1 if they meet all 13 of the following conditions. It does not mean the designer is required to meet the two separate design points of 20.3.1. The designer still has the option of designing the system as per Chapter 16 or Chapter 17. David L. Miller, P.E. Engineered Fire Protection, LLC 11920 Richcroft Avenue Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70814 225-273-5040 From: Gregory Lindholm [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 12:10 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Retail Building Maybe I explained it wrong. In the past, all Retail was labeled Mercantile, Ordinary Hazard Group II, unless they specifically had storage over 12' high. Pretty much all Grocery Stores went in OH Group II. Now, what is stopping an AHJ from calling a Strip Mall with 13' deck and 10' ceilings, "Retail Store", and requiring the design to be as per 20.3? What am I missing? Greg Lindholm _____ From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > on behalf of [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 3:34 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Sprinklerforum Digest, Vol 49, Issue 3 Send Sprinklerforum mailing list submissions to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.or g> Sprinklerforum Info Page - American Fire Sprinkler Association lists.firesprinkler.org Your email address: Your name (optional): You may enter a privacy password below. This provides only mild security, but should prevent others from messing ... or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Sprinklerforum digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: NFPA 13 dry system - residential sprinklers (Travis Mack, SET) 2. RE: NFPA 13 dry system - residential sprinklers (Foster, Ed) 3. RE: NFPA 13 dry system - residential sprinklers (Ed Kramer) 4. Retail Building (Gregory Lindholm) 5. RE: Retail Building (Bob) 6. RE: Retail Building (Fox, Duane T. (FireMarshal)) 7. RE: Retail Building (Steve Leyton) 8. NFPA 20 4.7.7.2 (Colin Carew (Cambridge)) 9. RE: NFPA 20 4.7.7.2 (John Irwin) 10. RE: NFPA 20 4.7.7.2 (Prahl, Craig/GVL) 11. RE: NFPA 20 4.7.7.2 (Tom Duross) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 08:58:55 -0700 From: "Travis Mack, SET" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: NFPA 13 dry system - residential sprinklers Message-ID: <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed" You mean I just can't pick and choose the standard edition I want to use? :-) I guess I am guilty of not reading the full text of the message. Great catch, my friend. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:[email protected] http://www.mfpdesign.com <http://www.mfpdesign.com/> MFP Design www.mfpdesign.com <http://www.mfpdesign.com> MFP Design, LLC was started in 2001. MFP Design, LLC provides fire sprinkler drawings for architects, engineers and fire sprinkler contractors in the industry. https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack <https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack> Travis Mack | LinkedIn www.linkedin.com <http://www.linkedin.com> View Travis Mack's professional profile on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is the world's largest business network, helping professionals like Travis Mack discover inside ... On 4/6/2017 9:01 AM, Parsley Consulting wrote: > Remember friends that the text Travis quoted was _*added*_ in the 2010 > edition of -13. Dewayne's inquiry began with a note that his project > was governed by the 2007. Still, the value for dry system water > delivery time of 15 seconds for residential occupancies was the first > item in Table 7.2.3.6.1. > *Ken Wagoner, SET > *Parsley Consulting*** > *350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206 > *Escondido, California 92025 > *****Phone 760-745-6181* > Visit our website <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/> *** <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/> Parsley Consulting - Founded 1985, by Donald L. Parsley ... www.parsleyconsulting.com <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com> Parsley Consulting designs and reviews residential and commercial fire suppression and alarm systems plans, and provides consulting services to authorities having ... > On 04/06/2017 8:36 AM, Travis Mack, SET wrote: >> >> It can be R or I occupancy. It doesn't matter. It is the fact you >> are protecting a dwelling unit with a dry pipe system. >> >> 7.2.3.6.3 For dry pipe systems protecting dwelling unit portions of >> any occupancy, the sprinklers in the dwelling unit shall have a >> maximum water delivery time of 15 seconds to the >> single most remote sprinkler. >> >> It seems like you have 15 seconds regardless. Now, if you have a dry >> pipe valve on the first floor and I believe you said these were on >> the 5th floor, it seems quite unlikely you will get 15 seconds. My >> suggestion is to find a way to supply these sprinklers in the >> dwelling units from a wet pipe system. >> >> Travis Mack, SET >> MFP Design, LLC >> 2508 E Lodgepole Drive >> Gilbert, AZ 85298 >> 480-505-9271 >> fax: 866-430-6107 >> email:[email protected] >> >> http://www.mfpdesign.com <http://www.mfpdesign.com/> MFP Design www.mfpdesign.com <http://www.mfpdesign.com> MFP Design, LLC was started in 2001. MFP Design, LLC provides fire sprinkler drawings for architects, engineers and fire sprinkler contractors in the industry. >> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 <https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692> Log In or Sign Up to View www.facebook.com <http://www.facebook.com> See posts, photos and more on Facebook. >> Send large files to us via:https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign >> LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack >> On 4/6/2017 8:16 AM, Dewayne Martinez wrote: >>> >>> That was one of my concerns also. R-2 floor occupancy, calculating >>> it per light hazard but using residential heads. If the R-2 >>> occupancy is what would dictate the 15sec delivery time then it >>> wouldn?t matter what type of heads I used in the residential areas. >>> >>> *From:*Sprinklerforum >>> [mailto:[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>] *On Behalf >>> Of *Travis Mack >>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 06, 2017 8:58 AM >>> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>> *Subject:* Re: NFPA 13 dry system - residential sprinklers >>> >>> Double check delivery times. I think you need a 15 second delivery >>> time in residential areas. >>> >>> Travis Mack, SET >>> >>> MFP Design, LLC >>> >>> "Follow" us on Facebook: >>> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 >>> >>> Send large files to MFP Design via: >>> >>> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> On Apr 6, 2017, at 6:31 AM, Dewayne Martinez >>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]%20%0b> >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> The dry portion below the attic was laid out at max 15x15 >>> spacing with the >>> lines at 15ft above the floor. The way the rooms layout there >>> are long >>> runs with 8ft ceilings so I was going to drop down once to feed >>> all these >>> rooms with one line but I still need to size it. This reviewer >>> will still >>> make us calculate the residential build out portion. I can get >>> by with a >>> 1 1/4" line calculating 4 heads. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Mark Phillips [mailto:[email protected]] >>> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2017 8:17 AM >>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>> Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: NFPA 13 dry system - residential sprinklers >>> >>> If I'm understanding >>> The roof system is unchanged and your adding a lower supply to >>> be rooms. >>> >>> Use standard qr heads and same pipe sizes >>> >>> The roof is still most demanding >>> >>> Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Droid >>> On Apr 6, 2017 9:14 AM, Dewayne Martinez >>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]%0b> >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> wrote: >>> NFPA 13 (07ed) >>> >>> I have an existing 5th floor shell space that is installed as a >>> light >>> hazard dry system that has pipe in the shell space and in the >>> attic. They >>> are turning this floor into a dormitory (R-2). >>> 1)Can I use listed residential heads on return bends and only >>> pick up 4 >>> heads per 11.3.1.1 or will I need to pick up 1950SF? What if >>> there are >>> incidental areas such as a laundry room, ect. in the same areas >>> as the >>> dorm rooms? >>> 2)What would be the required trip time be per Table 7.2.3.6.1? >>> 15sec for >>> residential or 60sec for light hazard? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Dewayne Martinez >>> Fire Protection Design Manager >>> >>> TOTAL Mechanical >>> Building Integrity >>> W234 N2830 Paul Rd. >>> Pewaukee, WI 53072 >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]%3e%3cmailto:dmartinez@total-mechanica l.com> ><mailto:[email protected]> >>> Ph: 262-522-7110 >>> Cell: 414-406-5208 >>> http://www.total-mechanical.com/ >>> >>> [cid:[email protected]] >>> [cid:[email protected]] >>> [cid:[email protected]] [Top Workplaces 2015] >>> >>> TOTAL Mechanical voted "Top Workplace" for a 4th consecutive year. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20170406/67c723ca/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 16:32:30 +0000 From: "Foster, Ed" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > To: "[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> " <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: RE: NFPA 13 dry system - residential sprinklers Message-ID: <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have appreciated the many opportunities to learn much from reading the exchanges on this forum. Today I am inclined to add this comment: "They are turning this floor into a dormitory (R-2)". I believe that the change of occupancy classification / use would dictate compliance with the code/ standards that are current to the time of change, which if I understand this thread is the present. The recommendation to install a wet system seems most appropriate. One man's opinion. Ed Foster Fire Marshal Fire Prevention Bureau Carpinteria-Summerland Fire District (805) 566-2451 [cid:82df1ca92855c9c2623baa3ddf8c0acda8677ac1@zimbra] From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Parsley Consulting Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2017 9:02 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: NFPA 13 dry system - residential sprinklers Remember friends that the text Travis quoted was added in the 2010 edition of -13. Dewayne's inquiry began with a note that his project was governed by the 2007. Still, the value for dry system water delivery time of 15 seconds for residential occupancies was the first item in Table 7.2.3.6.1. Ken Wagoner, SET Parsley Consulting 350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206 Escondido, California 92025 Phone 760-745-6181 Visit our website<http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/> On 04/06/2017 8:36 AM, Travis Mack, SET wrote: It can be R or I occupancy. It doesn't matter. It is the fact you are protecting a dwelling unit with a dry pipe system. 7.2.3.6.3 For dry pipe systems protecting dwelling unit portions of any occupancy, the sprinklers in the dwelling unit shall have a maximum water delivery time of 15 seconds to the single most remote sprinkler. It seems like you have 15 seconds regardless. Now, if you have a dry pipe valve on the first floor and I believe you said these were on the 5th floor, it seems quite unlikely you will get 15 seconds. My suggestion is to find a way to supply these sprinklers in the dwelling units from a wet pipe system. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:[email protected]<mailto:email:[email protected]> http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack On 4/6/2017 8:16 AM, Dewayne Martinez wrote: That was one of my concerns also. R-2 floor occupancy, calculating it per light hazard but using residential heads. If the R-2 occupancy is what would dictate the 15sec delivery time then it wouldn't matter what type of heads I used in the residential areas. From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]%3cmailto:sprinklerfor [email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of Travis Mack Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2017 8:58 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]%3cmailto:sprinklerforum@lists .firesprinkler.org> <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: NFPA 13 dry system - residential sprinklers Double check delivery times. I think you need a 15 second delivery time in residential areas. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone On Apr 6, 2017, at 6:31 AM, Dewayne Martinez <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]%3cmailto:[email protected] om> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: The dry portion below the attic was laid out at max 15x15 spacing with the lines at 15ft above the floor. The way the rooms layout there are long runs with 8ft ceilings so I was going to drop down once to feed all these rooms with one line but I still need to size it. This reviewer will still make us calculate the residential build out portion. I can get by with a 1 1/4" line calculating 4 heads. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Phillips [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2017 8:17 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]%3cmailto:sprinklerforum@lists .firesprinkler.org> <mailto:[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]%3cmailto:[email protected] om> <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: NFPA 13 dry system - residential sprinklers If I'm understanding The roof system is unchanged and your adding a lower supply to be rooms. Use standard qr heads and same pipe sizes The roof is still most demanding Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Droid On Apr 6, 2017 9:14 AM, Dewayne Martinez <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]%3cmailto:[email protected] om> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: NFPA 13 (07ed) I have an existing 5th floor shell space that is installed as a light hazard dry system that has pipe in the shell space and in the attic. They are turning this floor into a dormitory (R-2). 1)Can I use listed residential heads on return bends and only pick up 4 heads per 11.3.1.1 or will I need to pick up 1950SF? What if there are incidental areas such as a laundry room, ect. in the same areas as the dorm rooms? 2)What would be the required trip time be per Table 7.2.3.6.1? 15sec for residential or 60sec for light hazard? Thanks, Dewayne Martinez Fire Protection Design Manager TOTAL Mechanical Building Integrity W234 N2830 Paul Rd. Pewaukee, WI 53072 [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]%3cmailto:[email protected] om%3e%3cmailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]><mailto:[email protected] m> Ph: 262-522-7110 Cell: 414-406-5208 http://www.total-mechanical.com/ [cid:[email protected]] [cid:[email protected]] [cid:[email protected]] [Top Workplaces 2015] TOTAL Mechanical voted "Top Workplace" for a 4th consecutive year. _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]%3cmailto:Sprinklerforum@lists .firesprinkler.org> <mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]%3cmailto:Sprinklerforum@lists .firesprinkler.org> <mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]%3cmailto:Sprinklerforum@lists .firesprinkler.org> <mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20170406/5700c6e5/attachment-0001.htm> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2712 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20170406/5700c6e5/attachment-0001.gif> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 11:47:14 -0500 From: "Ed Kramer" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > To: <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: RE: NFPA 13 dry system - residential sprinklers Message-ID: <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" A couple of things to consider: - Section 8.4.5.2 ? can?t use residential sprinks on a dry system unless specifically listed for dry systems. - Section 8.3.4.1(2) ? Unless the pipe is galvanized or otherwise corrosion resistant, minimum K-factor is 5.6. So you?ll need a residential sprink that is listed for dry systems and is K5.6 or greater. Ed Kramer From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2017 8:13 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: NFPA 13 dry system - residential sprinklers NFPA 13 (07ed) I have an existing 5th floor shell space that is installed as a light hazard dry system that has pipe in the shell space and in the attic. They are turning this floor into a dormitory (R-2). 1)Can I use listed residential heads on return bends and only pick up 4 heads per 11.3.1.1 or will I need to pick up 1950SF? What if there are incidental areas such as a laundry room, ect. in the same areas as the dorm rooms? 2)What would be the required trip time be per Table 7.2.3.6.1? 15sec for residential or 60sec for light hazard? Thanks, Dewayne Martinez Fire Protection Design Manager TOTAL Mechanical Building Integrity W234 N2830 Paul Rd. Pewaukee, WI 53072 [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> Ph: 262-522-7110 Cell: 414-406-5208 http://www.total-mechanical.com/ TOTAL Mechanical voted ?Top Workplace? for a 4th consecutive year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20170406/fd289b6d/attachment-0001.htm> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1497 bytes Desc: not available URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20170406/fd289b6d/attachment-0004.jpeg> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1694 bytes Desc: not available URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20170406/fd289b6d/attachment-0005.jpeg> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1991 bytes Desc: not available URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20170406/fd289b6d/attachment-0006.jpeg> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 2347 bytes Desc: not available URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20170406/fd289b6d/attachment-0007.jpeg> ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 18:02:22 +0000 From: Gregory Lindholm <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > To: "[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> " <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Retail Building Message-ID: <dm5pr11mb170644e888d952f01fae0338d5...@dm5pr11mb1706.namprd11.prod.outlook. com <mailto:dm5pr11mb170644e888d952f01fae0338d5...@dm5pr11mb1706.namprd11.prod.o utlook.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Something just came up here. What would stop someone from saying that any retail store (Small Strip Mall, etc.) would have to be designed according to NFPA #13 - 2016 20.3, which calls for .6 / 2000 for "Retail Store"??, instead of the normal Ordinary Hazard Group II? Greg Lindholm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20170406/26aa7667/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 12:05:11 -0600 From: "Bob" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > To: <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: RE: Retail Building Message-ID: <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Retail vs Mercantile? Thank you, Bob Knight, CET III 208-318-3057 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gregory Lindholm Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2017 12:02 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Retail Building Something just came up here. What would stop someone from saying that any retail store (Small Strip Mall, etc.) would have to be designed according to NFPA #13 - 2016 20.3, which calls for .6 / 2000 for "Retail Store"??, instead of the normal Ordinary Hazard Group II? Greg Lindholm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20170406/cac8f112/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 18:10:55 +0000 From: "Fox, Duane T. (FireMarshal)" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > To: "'[email protected]'" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >, "'[email protected]'" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: RE: Retail Building Message-ID: <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There is no such occupancy in NFPA 101 called Retail. They are all mercantile. The difference is the height of storage on the shelving. Group II limits the height of storage to 12'. If your Mercantile has shelving storage that exceeds 12' then 20.3 would apply. Good luck. Duane T. Fox, Jr., CFPS, CFI, CFPE Asst Chief, Technical Services DE State Fire Marshal's Office From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bob Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2017 2:05 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: Retail Building Retail vs Mercantile? Thank you, Bob Knight, CET III 208-318-3057 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gregory Lindholm Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2017 12:02 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]%3cmailto:sprinklerforum@lists .firesprinkler.org> <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Retail Building Something just came up here. What would stop someone from saying that any retail store (Small Strip Mall, etc.) would have to be designed according to NFPA #13 - 2016 20.3, which calls for .6 / 2000 for "Retail Store"??, instead of the normal Ordinary Hazard Group II? Greg Lindholm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20170406/2bffaf47/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 20:12:56 +0000 From: Steve Leyton <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > To: "[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> " <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >, "[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> " <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: RE: Retail Building Message-ID: <mwhpr17mb11651c417a0a435922541e84d5...@mwhpr17mb1165.namprd17.prod.outlook. com <mailto:mwhpr17mb11651c417a0a435922541e84d5...@mwhpr17mb1165.namprd17.prod.o utlook.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mercantile (Group M) is how retail is classified in the building code. For our purposes Retail = Mercantile = Store = Dispensary (In Colorado, Washington and select other states). Obviously there are exceptions. Stores with racks, tire stores, other higher combustible-loaded "retail" uses require more robust fire protection. But if you are confused about reference to an occupancy as Mercantile, it is usually (and that's USUALLY with emphasis) an OH2. My opinion only, Steve L. From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bob Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 11:05 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: Retail Building Retail vs Mercantile? Thank you, Bob Knight, CET III 208-318-3057 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gregory Lindholm Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2017 12:02 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]%3cmailto:sprinklerforum@lists .firesprinkler.org> <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Retail Building Something just came up here. What would stop someone from saying that any retail store (Small Strip Mall, etc.) would have to be designed according to NFPA #13 - 2016 20.3, which calls for .6 / 2000 for "Retail Store"??, instead of the normal Ordinary Hazard Group II? Greg Lindholm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20170406/355a575a/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 20:20:33 +0000 From: "Colin Carew (Cambridge)" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > To: "[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> " <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: NFPA 20 4.7.7.2 Message-ID: <cy1pr07mb258890c58e0eb63d42c5b526f7...@cy1pr07mb2588.namprd07.prod.outlook. com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Forum , Could someone shed some light on the requirements for 4.7.7.2 . I have a project where the quoted fire pump comes with a Pressure relief valve and waste cone . City pressure is 58/56/1586 , we are using a 1500gpm pump at 140 psi to get the flow and pressure we need to supply a freezer using LP-46 heads . I find many references to the use of Pressure relief valves being Used but 4.7.7.2 is causing me to scratch my head . Colin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20170406/9eb25937/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 16:27:51 -0400 From: John Irwin <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > To: "[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> " <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: RE: NFPA 20 4.7.7.2 Message-ID: <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Diesel pump? Otherwise no main relief allowed. John Irwin Division Manager - Fire Sprinklers Critical System Solutions [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> 813-618-2781 Sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, spelling errors and punctuation gaffes. -------- Original message -------- From: "Colin Carew (Cambridge)" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Date: 4/6/17 4:20 PM (GMT-05:00) To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: NFPA 20 4.7.7.2 Hi Forum , Could someone shed some light on the requirements for 4.7.7.2 . I have a project where the quoted fire pump comes with a Pressure relief valve and waste cone . City pressure is 58/56/1586 , we are using a 1500gpm pump at 140 psi to get the flow and pressure we need to supply a freezer using LP-46 heads . I find many references to the use of Pressure relief valves being Used but 4.7.7.2 is causing me to scratch my head . Colin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20170406/eef42704/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 20:31:32 +0000 From: "Prahl, Craig/GVL" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > To: "[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> " <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: RE: NFPA 20 4.7.7.2 Message-ID: <bn6pr06mb3043fde56361525a52e85e75d6...@bn6pr06mb3043.namprd06.prod.outlook. com <mailto:bn6pr06mb3043fde56361525a52e85e75d6...@bn6pr06mb3043.namprd06.prod.o utlook.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Is the 140 psi total pressure or pump rating? The pressure relief valve comes into play if the combination of supply pressure and pump pressure exceeds the allowable system pressure, which for most cases is 175 psi. So if you had fluctuating supply pressures, during a higher than normal pressure event, the system could relieve and not damage your downstream, 175 psi rated system. Is this a diesel or electric? How much pressure do you need at these heads? Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2M 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 Direct - 864.920.7540 Fax - 864.920.7129 CH2MHILL Extension 77540 [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Colin Carew (Cambridge) Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2017 4:21 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: NFPA 20 4.7.7.2 [EXTERNAL] Hi Forum , Could someone shed some light on the requirements for 4.7.7.2 . I have a project where the quoted fire pump comes with a Pressure relief valve and waste cone . City pressure is 58/56/1586 , we are using a 1500gpm pump at 140 psi to get the flow and pressure we need to supply a freezer using LP-46 heads . I find many references to the use of Pressure relief valves being Used but 4.7.7.2 is causing me to scratch my head . Colin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20170406/aa5da393/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 16:34:14 -0400 From: "Tom Duross" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > To: <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: RE: NFPA 20 4.7.7.2 Message-ID: <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Looks like you could be above 200 PSI churn or system pressure. The standard (2013 referenced) does not allow you to use the relief as a means of blowing off excess pressure above 175. Tom Is the 140 psi total pressure or pump rating? The pressure relief valve comes into play if the combination of supply pressure and pump pressure exceeds the allowable system pressure, which for most cases is 175 psi. So if you had fluctuating supply pressures, during a higher than normal pressure event, the system could relieve and not damage your downstream, 175 psi rated system. Is this a diesel or electric? How much pressure do you need at these heads? Craig L. Prahl Hi Forum , Could someone shed some light on the requirements for 4.7.7.2 . I have a project where the quoted fire pump comes with a Pressure relief valve and waste cone . City pressure is 58/56/1586 , we are using a 1500gpm pump at 140 psi to get the flow and pressure we need to supply a freezer using LP-46 heads . I find many references to the use of Pressure relief valves being Used but 4.7.7.2 is causing me to scratch my head . Colin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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