Our supply engines are rated 2000 gpm, attack engines 1000-1500 gpm. Notice I wrote rated, in many cases they can exceed those values. As for an FDC the basic question comes down to; a) are the systems supplied by an automatic water source and thus the FDC is merely supplemental, b) are the systems supplied by the fire department and thus the FDC is the primary water source, c) some combination wherein the fire department is supplying a portion of the demand.
John John Drucker, CET Assistant Construction Official Fire and Electrical Subcode Official Building Inspector Building Department Borough of Red Bank, NJ Cell/Text 732-904-6823 ________________________________ From: Sprinklerforum [[email protected]] on behalf of Bruce Verhei [[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 1:39 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: FDC sizing on wet automatic standpipes A high percentage of municipal engines are rated at 1,500 gpm. The power plants all have excess power for pumping. You’ll see some 1,750 rated pumps. The are the same pump with another 2 1/2” discharge. I’m not sure the impeller is cut differently. You just run a little higher rpm. The old Detroit Diesel 6-71 NA did fine pumping 1,500. Lots of engines have power plants nearly twice as powerful. Best. Bruce Verhei On Nov 19, 2017, at 10:26, Pete Schwab <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: NFPA 14 requires that the piping to the FDC be sized to supply the system demand for manual and automatic standpipes. 7.7.1 is pretty clear and does not delineate between automatic or manual. Also see the 2016 edition section A.7.10.1.2. Just my opinion and not that of NFPA. 7.7 System Design and Sizing of Pipe for Delivery of System Demand. 7.7.1 Class I and Class III standpipe systems shall be designed so that the system demand can be supplied by each fire department connection, which is provided in accordance with Section 7.12. 7.7.2* Where an automatic or semiautomatic water supply is required for a Class I, II, or III standpipe system by Section 5.4, the standpipe system shall be designed so that the system demand can be independently supplied by the attached water supply and each fire department connection provided on the system. 7.7.3 Where a manual system is permitted by Section 5.4 and an attached water supply is provided to supply an automatic sprinkler system or to maintain water in a wet system, the attached water supply shall not be required to satisfy the standpipe system demand. 7.7.4 When the system demand to be supplied by the fire department at the fire department connection is being determined, the local fire department shall be consulted regarding the water supply available from a fire department pumper. When performing a hydraulic design, the hydraulic characteristics of each water supply need to be known. The procedure for determining the hydraulic characteristics of permanent water supplies, such as pumps, is fairly straightforward and is described in NFPA 20. The procedure for determining the hydraulic characteristics of fire apparatus supplying a standpipe system are similar. Lacking better information about local fire apparatus, a conservative design would accommodate a 1000 gpm (3785 L/min) fire department pumper performing at the level of design specifications set forth in NFPA 1901. NFPA 1901 specifies that fire department pumpers must be able to achieve three pressure/flow combinations. These are 100 percent of rated capacity at 150 psi (1034 kPa) net pump pressure, 70 percent of rated capacity at 200 psi (1379 kPa) net pump pressure, and 50 percent of rated capacity at 250 psi (1724 kPa) net pump pressure. Therefore, a 1000 gpm (3785 L/min) pumper can be expected to deliver no less than 1000 gpm (3785 L/min) at 150 psi (1034 kPa), 700 gpm (2650 L/min) at 200 psi (1379 kPa), and 500 gpm (1893 L/ min) at 250 psi (1724 kPa). Residual supply pressure on the suction side of a pump from a municipal or other pressurized water supply can also be added. The 150 psi (1034 kPa) suggested pressure is also found in NFPA 13E. It also states that this is the pressure to be provided unless the sign at the fire department connection states otherwise. It is not the intent of this standard to limit the maximum pumper pressure at the fire department connection inlet for manual or automatic standpipes to 150 psi (1034 kPa). Peter Schwab VP of Purchasing and Engineering technologies Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers Inc. 222 Capitol Court Ocoee, Fl 34761 Mobile: (407) 468-8248 Direct: (407) 877-5570 Fax: (407) 656-8026 www.waynefire.com<http://www.waynefire.com/> <image003.jpg> I sleep in a sprinklered home, do you? From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 3:07 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: FDC sizing on wet automatic standpipes Yeah, what Travis said. Everyone should remember that FDC configurations and sizing take into account the chance that there may be obstruction or damage to an inlet, so providing four is not based on hydraulics only. As for the pipe sizing … I have less energy about that and if it calc’s then it should be adequate. But (and as per my usual rap)... IT’S UP TO THE AHJ. The foregoing is my opinion only and is not intended to represent the NFPA 14 Technical Committee, nor serve as an interpretation of the standard. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of MFP Design, LLC Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 12:03 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: FDC sizing on wet automatic standpipes I don’t believe it matters what the building serves. It is an automatic standpipe. I don’t see in Chapter 7 of NFPA 14 2013 that says the FDC inlet shall be based on 250 gpm per inlet only if it is a manual standpipe. I don’t see where you have to calculate through the FDC. You may be able to use 4”, but you will still need 4 inlets. I think that seems quite odd and would probably try to run it as 6” as a good practice. However, I can’t see anything requiring the size of the piping to be any minimum. <image005.jpg> Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:[email protected]<mailto:email:[email protected]> http://www.mfpdesign.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mfpdesign.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=HJ8OA4xyeHAoxXNz5mu%2FYfycgtd5nsFrrpvzulZiNkQ%3D&reserved=0> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpages%2FMFP-Design-LLC%2F92218417692&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=H%2BwdcgK8DLGBcNoqJEvUrzsXngySwkX56Vgf9gM9EGk%3D&reserved=0> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D&reserved=0> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D&reserved=0> “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Art Tiroly Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 12:52 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: FDC sizing on wet automatic standpipes Is this a residential or light hazard 8 story building? Do you have a 1000 gpm fire pump from city water? Electric or diesel? Reliable power with no outages? 3 - 4 or more standpipe risers? Then you can get answers. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ben Young Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 11:05 AM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: FDC sizing on wet automatic standpipes I'm not lucky enough to be able to treat the FDC on a wet automatic standpipe as supplemental am I? We have a building with a combined sprinkler and standpipe system that's wet automatic. Building is 8 stories, but separated. etc. etc. Since the standpipe is wet automatic, the FDC isn't the only supply source, so do we still have to calculate it hydraulically? Total standpipe demand is 1000 GPM We're using NFPA 14, 2013 edition. Basically, I'm trying to figure out if its OK to run 4" to the FDC and use a single Siamese instead of 6" piping to a 4-way or two Siamese connections. Benjamin Young <image006.jpg><https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon> Virus-free. www.avast.com<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link> _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
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