I think the rationale is that for a project in the downtown areas, your flow test is already accounting for those buildings being active. In the new development, your flow test is not accounting for those since they don't yet exist.
However, I am glad the commentary in the 13R handbook (2016) specifically states it is only to include one building when you have multiple on a site. It would be great if that could make it in to the body of the standard. Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET Engineering Manager MFP Design 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 NEW MOBILE: 480-272-2471 mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com www.mfpdesign.com Send large files to us via: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D&reserved=0 LinkedIn: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D&reserved=0 “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” Need/Want a faster way to check material pricing? Build a material quote? Check availability ? Searching for an invoice? *If you do not already have an account with ferguson.com, click https://www.ferguson.com/account-registration to register.* **Have a Ferguson account? Download the Ferguson app for on-the-go access to your favorite ferguson.com features. http://fergusoncommunications.us.newsweaver.com/hq7bgesq7f/1qtklpp37l9byeftyuoy12/external?email=true&a=6&p=2591775&t=517003 or http://fergusoncommunications.us.newsweaver.com/hq7bgesq7f/n1gewi5ud95byeftyuoy12/external?email=true&a=6&p=2591775&t=517003** From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Bob Knight via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 11:27 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Bob Knight <b...@firebyknight.com> Subject: RE: Domestic Demands 13R "However, they may be expected to have domestic demands. That is the plan reviewer rationale in one particular case." Does the reviewer apply this same logic when doing a project in a downtown area with hundreds of buildings all using water at the same time? I would assume not. So, why would this be any different? The domestic demand needs to be added only when sharing the water supply from the same line for each individual building. This is not a collective requirement. Thank you, Bob Knight, CET III Fire by Knight, LLC 208-318-3057 -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 9:53 AM To: mailto:philli...@pyebarkerfire.com; mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com Subject: RE: Domestic Demands 13R Correct. However, they may be expected to have domestic demands. That is the plan reviewer rationale in one particular case. Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET Engineering Manager MFP Design 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 NEW MOBILE: 480-272-2471 mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com http://www.mfpdesign.com Send large files to us via: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D&reserved=0 LinkedIn: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D&reserved=0 “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” Need/Want a faster way to check material pricing? Build a material quote? Check availability ? Searching for an invoice? *If you do not already have an account with ferguson.com, click https://www.ferguson.com/account-registration to register.* **Have a Ferguson account? Download the Ferguson app for on-the-go access to your favorite ferguson.com features. http://fergusoncommunications.us.newsweaver.com/hq7bgesq7f/1qtklpp37l9byeftyuoy12/external?email=true&a=6&p=2591775&t=517003 or http://fergusoncommunications.us.newsweaver.com/hq7bgesq7f/n1gewi5ud95byeftyuoy12/external?email=true&a=6&p=2591775&t=517003** From: Mark Phillips <mailto:philli...@pyebarkerfire.com> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 9:51 AM To: mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org; Travis Mack <mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com> Subject: Re: Domestic Demands 13R From a practical perspective all of the apartment building would not be expected to be on fire at once. That was how a plan reviewer once explained it to me. Sent from my mobile device Please excuse spelling, grammar, and auto correction. Mark Phillips Branch Manager Fire Sprinkler Design, Install, Inspections Service, Backflows, Fire Alarm Inspections 832-101 Purser Drive Raleigh NC 27603 Phone: 919-779-4010 Fax : 919-779-4014 Cell : 919-268-7587 Email : mailto:philli...@pyebarkerfire.com Web : http://www.pyebarkerfire.com ________________________________________ From: Sprinklerforum <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> on behalf of Mark Phillips via Sprinklerforum <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 11:46:23 AM To: mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com <mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com>; mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Mark Phillips <mailto:philli...@pyebarkerfire.com> Subject: Re: Domestic Demands 13R [EXTERNAL] Sorry if I was not clear only the demand of the building or buildings that share the 4 inch supply . Sent from my mobile device Please excuse spelling, grammar, and auto correction. Mark Phillips Branch Manager Fire Sprinkler Design, Install, Inspections Service, Backflows, Fire Alarm Inspections 832-101 Purser Drive Raleigh NC 27603 Phone: 919-779-4010 Fax : 919-779-4014 Cell : 919-268-7587 Email : mailto:philli...@pyebarkerfire.com Web : http://www.pyebarkerfire.com ________________________________ From: mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com <mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 11:44:10 AM To: Mark Phillips <mailto:philli...@pyebarkerfire.com>; mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Domestic Demands 13R [EXTERNAL] So in this case, you would be adding a total demand of 2500 gpm (20 buildings at 125 gpm each) to your sprinkler calc? And yes, it would be included at the point of each 4” connection to the 8” main. Seems excessive, but I have seen it requested that way. I have more commonly done what Matt states to only include the building of interest in the calc. Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET Engineering Manager MFP Design 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 NEW MOBILE: 480-272-2471 mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com http://www.mfpdesign.com<http://www.mfpdesign.com> Send large files to us via: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D&reserved=0 LinkedIn: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D&reserved=0 “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” Need/Want a faster way to check material pricing? Build a material quote? Check availability ? Searching for an invoice? *If you do not already have an account with ferguson.com, click https://www.ferguson.com/account-registration to register.* **Have a Ferguson account? Download the Ferguson app for on-the-go access to your favorite ferguson.com features. http://fergusoncommunications.us.newsweaver.com/hq7bgesq7f/1qtklpp37l9byeftyuoy12/external?email=true&a=6&p=2591775&t=517003 or http://fergusoncommunications.us.newsweaver.com/hq7bgesq7f/n1gewi5ud95byeftyuoy12/external?email=true&a=6&p=2591775&t=517003** From: Mark Phillips <mailto:philli...@pyebarkerfire.com> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 9:41 AM To: mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Travis Mack <mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com> Subject: Re: Domestic Demands 13R Assuming the 8 inch supply loops the complex Add the domestic demand at the 4” point on the loop for each building Sent from my mobile device Please excuse spelling, grammar, and auto correction. Mark Phillips Branch Manager Fire Sprinkler Design, Install, Inspections Service, Backflows, Fire Alarm Inspections 832-101 Purser Drive Raleigh NC 27603 Phone: 919-779-4010 Fax : 919-779-4014 Cell : 919-268-7587 Email : mailto:philli...@pyebarkerfire.com Web : http://www.pyebarkerfire.com ________________________________________ From: Sprinklerforum <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> on behalf of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 11:34:20 AM To: mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com <mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com> Subject: Domestic Demands 13R [EXTERNAL] Forumites: Per 13R 9.6 it requires the domestic demand for the building being calculated to be added to the fire sprinkler system. This is generally not an issue. If you have a complex of say 20 buildings on site that is supplied by a common water line serving both domestic and fire, are you required to include the domestic demand for each building on the site water main. For example, if I have a project with a 8" main going through the complex, and 4" lead-ins to each building, with a domestic demand of 125 gpm for each building, how are you doing the domestic demand? With the domestic / fire split in the building, it is required to include the 125 gpm demand in addition to the fire sprinkler system demand in the 4" line. Are you including the other 2375 gpm (19 additional buildings at 125 gpm domestic allowance), in your calculations back to the city main? This seems quite excessive. If it were a 13 system, you would have similar flows and a 100 gpm hose allowance. There is no requirement in this example to include the domestic in a 13 system. But, if you are required to include the additional 2375 gpm, that could be quite taxing on the site supply. Again, how is everyone handling it. We have seen AHJ's take both approaches on this. Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET Engineering Manager MFP Design 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 NEW MOBILE: 480-272-2471 mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com http://www.mfpdesign.com Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” Need/Want a faster way to check material pricing? Build a material quote? Check availability ? Searching for an invoice? *If you do not already have an account with ferguson.com, click here to register.* **Have a Ferguson account? Download the Ferguson app for on-the-go access to your favorite ferguson.com features. 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