Folks, many thanks for the very helpful responses. I will give this a go on Monday evening. I’ll document and post the results.
Ricky > On Mar 6, 2015, at 12:00 PM, [email protected] wrote: > > Send Sursound mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Sursound digest..." > > > You are receiving the digest so when replying, please remember to edit your > Subject line to that of the original message you are replying to, so it is > more specific than "Re: Contents of Sirsound-list digest > " the subject should match the post you are replying to. > > Also, please EDIT the quoted post so that it is not the entire digest, but > just the post you are replying to - this will keep the archive useful and not > polluted with extraneous posts. > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Recording B-Format (Enda Bates) (James Anthony Enda Bates) > 2. Re: Recording B-Format (David Pickett) > 3. Re: Recording B-Format (Fons Adriaensen) > 4. Recording B-format (Eric Benjamin) > 5. Re: Recording B-format (Ricky Graham) > 6. Re: Recording B-format (Paul Hodges) > 7. Re: [allowed] Recording B-Format (Gerard Lardner) > 8. Re: Recording B-Format (Joseph Anderson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 17:24:45 +0000 > From: James Anthony Enda Bates <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Recording B-Format (Enda Bates) > Message-ID: > <camhmwbrfvt0xcxxssgymjethq3w+xp1b88ev3221f9smo1t...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Native B-format would be the way to do it alright, although depending on > your decoding/loudspeaker array requirements, the Double MS technique could > be worth a look also. > http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/categories/dms-tool > e > > -- > - www.endabates.net > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20150305/7ded8977/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 18:41:24 +0100 > From: David Pickett <[email protected]> > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Recording B-Format > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > At 17:39 05-03-15, Ricky Graham wrote: > >> Does anyone have any experience recording B-Format with multiple >> microphones set to specific polar patterns (i.e. if you dont have >> access to an ambisonic / tetramic?). Is it possible? If so, what are >> some of the issues / problems with this approach? > > In the horizontal plane, I have done it with two large diaphragm > stereo pairs on top of each other and have been amazed how accurate > it sounded. Subsequently, I have modified a single pair to output > WXY, with better results since the capsules are closer. I am now > making a mike in which the capsules are touching vertically. > > See http://www.fugato.com/pickett/pantophonics.shtml > > David > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 20:39:13 +0000 > From: Fons Adriaensen <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Recording B-Format > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 11:39:26AM -0500, Ricky Graham wrote: > >> Does anyone have any experience recording B-Format with multiple >> microphones set to specific polar patterns (i.e. if you don?t have >> access to an ambisonic / tetramic?). Is it possible? If so, what >> are some of the issues / problems with this approach? > > For horizontal-only it's certainly possible. I've heard some > very nice recordings done using a Schoeps omni and two AKG 414 > in fig-of-eight mode. > > Another method which I've used with good results is three > cardioids pointing at 60, -60 and 180 degrees. The signals > can be matrixed to W,X,Y very easily. > > The main problem in both cases is mounting the mics, this > requires a collection of clamps, stereo bars, etc. > > Ciao, > > -- > FA > > A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. > It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris > and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 14:01:03 -0800 > From: Eric Benjamin <[email protected]> > To: Ricky Graham <[email protected]>, Surround Sound Discussion > Group <[email protected]> > Subject: [Sursound] Recording B-format > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Ricky Graham <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Does anyone have any experience recording B-Format with multiple microphones > set to specific polar patterns (i.e. if you don?t have access to an ambisonic > / tetramic?). Is it possible? If so, what are some of the issues / problems > with this approach? > > ******************************************************************************************************************* > Along with Thomas Chen, I wrote two AES papers on this subject, "The Native > B-format Microphone" parts I and II. The abstracts can be seen here: > http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=13348 > > http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=13444 > > > The gist of the papers is, as you say, how to record B-format if you don't > have a soundfield microphone. Aside from getting the microphones as close > together as physically possible, it's important to do some post-processing to > make the frequency responses of the various microphones more alike than they > naturally are. Most figure eight condenser microphones roll off in the bass > at about 150 Hz. Most omni microphones make it down to 20 Hz or lower. You > can either boost the bass on the Fig 8s or roll-off the bass on the omnis. We > used two systems. One of them was comprised of lavaliere microphones (or > hearing aid microphones) and the other was two Schoeps Mk8s and an Mk2. > > One idea that we didn't try is that perhaps the omni (W) should be facing > upwards. Omnidirectional microphones, even very good ones like the Schoeps, > are really not very omni. So facing the microphone upwards guarantees that > the response will be the same in every direction in the horizontal plane. The > front-back (X) microphone can be placed above the omni, facing downwards. > That leaves the left-right (Y) microphone to be placed elsewhere. There are > no perfect solutions here! > > If you would like copies of the two papers, just let me know. I haven't > looked at them since we wrote them, but I don't think that we told any lies! > > Eric Benjamin > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20150305/efef2f52/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 17:17:03 -0500 > From: Ricky Graham <[email protected]> > To: Eric Benjamin <[email protected]> > Cc: Surround Sound Discussion Group <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Recording B-format > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hey Eric, > > Yes, please. I?d love to read them, and thanks for the information. I think I > will attempt the following: > > 1 Omni for W pointed upward > 2 figure 8 placed across one another for front-back and left-right (X / Y) > > No need for Z at the moment. > > Does this sound reasonable? I read an article on B+ format also using an > additional stereo pair. Could be useful? > > Ricky > >> On Mar 5, 2015, at 5:01 PM, Eric Benjamin <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Ricky Graham <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Does anyone have any experience recording B-Format with multiple microphones >> set to specific polar patterns (i.e. if you don?t have access to an >> ambisonic / tetramic?). Is it possible? If so, what are some of the issues / >> problems with this approach? >> ******************************************************************************************************************* >> Along with Thomas Chen, I wrote two AES papers on this subject, "The Native >> B-format Microphone" parts I and II. The abstracts can be seen here: >> http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=13348 >> http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=13444 >> >> The gist of the papers is, as you say, how to record B-format if you don't >> have a soundfield microphone. Aside from getting the microphones as close >> together as physically possible, it's important to do some post-processing >> to make the frequency responses of the various microphones more alike than >> they naturally are. Most figure eight condenser microphones roll off in the >> bass at about 150 Hz. Most omni microphones make it down to 20 Hz or lower. >> You can either boost the bass on the Fig 8s or roll-off the bass on the >> omnis. We used two systems. One of them was comprised of lavaliere >> microphones (or hearing aid microphones) and the other was two Schoeps Mk8s >> and an Mk2. >> >> One idea that we didn't try is that perhaps the omni (W) should be facing >> upwards. Omnidirectional microphones, even very good ones like the Schoeps, >> are really not very omni. So facing the microphone upwards guarantees that >> the response will be the same in every direction in the horizontal plane. >> The front-back (X) microphone can be placed above the omni, facing >> downwards. That leaves the left-right (Y) microphone to be placed >> elsewhere. There are no perfect solutions here! >> >> If you would like copies of the two papers, just let me know. I haven't >> looked at them since we wrote them, but I don't think that we told any lies! >> >> Eric Benjamin > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20150305/eca025f0/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 22:55:05 +0000 > From: Paul Hodges <[email protected]> > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Recording B-format > Message-ID: <117F565948D497657D74FC14@[192.168.1.74]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > --On 05 March 2015 14:01 -0800 Eric Benjamin <[email protected]> wrote: > >> One idea that we didn't try is that perhaps the omni (W) should be >> facing upwards. Omnidirectional microphones, even very good ones >> like the Schoeps, are really not very omni. So facing the microphone >> upwards guarantees that the response will be the same in every >> direction in the horizontal plane. > > And this is indeed the arrangement I used for my native B-format setup, > as described in the link I gave. As many of my recordings have music > from front and back, it seemed the natural thing to do. > > Paul > > -- > Paul Hodges > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 23:30:27 +0000 > From: Gerard Lardner <[email protected]> > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] [allowed] Recording B-Format > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed > > Search on Google for Nimbus-Halliday". Dr Jonathan Halliday used this > arrangement - no Z - for many (most?) of the Nimbus CDs; it comprised > one omni and two fig-8s. You can see a picture of the array and a > description at http://www.radio.uqam.ca/ambisonic/native_b.html. I have > a lot of Nimbus CDs and am familiar with the sound. > > Gerard Lardner > > > On 05/03/2015 16:39, Ricky Graham wrote: >> Hi Everyone, >> >> Does anyone have any experience recording B-Format with multiple microphones >> set to specific polar patterns (i.e. if you don?t have access to an >> ambisonic / tetramic?). Is it possible? If so, what are some of the issues / >> problems with this approach? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Richard >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 11:03:48 -0800 > From: Joseph Anderson <[email protected]> > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Recording B-Format > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > Hi Richard, > > The Ambisonic Toolkit includes an encoder that will take a set of directions > and polar patterns and encode to FOA B-format. > > The encoder is a simple "matrix only" encoding, and doesn't include > coincidence correction and/or any other frequency dependent operations. As > you'd expect, your results will vary depending on your microphone choices and > arrangement. In particular, one issue you'll very likely experience is > spatial aliasing beginning at mid-frequencies. > > Despite this, and depending on what you're after, you can still get very > useful and musical sounding results. Especially if you follow your initial > encoder with a spatial imaging transform. (E.g.," focus", to focus images on > the frontal stage. Or, you can similarly push reverberation towards the rear.) > > See: > > http://www.ambisonictoolkit.net > http://doc.sccode.org/Guides/Intro-to-the-ATK.html > http://doc.sccode.org/Classes/FoaEncoderMatrix.html#*newDirections > http://doc.sccode.org/Classes/FoaXformerMatrix.html#*newFocusX > > > Also worth having a look with some example recordings made by Daniel > Courville, see: > > D. Courville, "Comparative Surround Recording," Ambisonic Studio | > Comparative Surround Recording, 2007. [Online]. Available: > http://www.radio.uqam.ca/ambisonic/comparative_recording.html > [Accessed: 26-Jul-2011]. > > > Hope this helps, > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Joseph Anderson > > [email protected] > http://www.ambisonictoolkit.net > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > On 5 Mar 2015, at 8:39 am, Ricky Graham <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Everyone, >> >> Does anyone have any experience recording B-Format with multiple microphones >> set to specific polar patterns (i.e. if you don?t have access to an >> ambisonic / tetramic?). Is it possible? If so, what are some of the issues / >> problems with this approach? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Richard >> _______________________________________________ >> Sursound mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit >> account or options, view archives and so on. > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20150305/dd4da56c/attachment.html> > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Sursound mailing list > [email protected] > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Sursound Digest, Vol 80, Issue 2 > *************************************** _______________________________________________ Sursound mailing list [email protected] https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
