I actually quite enjoyed the writing ironically and I have high regard for
the goals and principles of scholarship. I believe a thorough knowledge of
whats been done before (lit review) referencing etc are all admirable and
essential. However I do not agree with you that research needs to have a
written conceptual framework in order to be considered research - this is
a circular argument that I have heard many times - however I do no think
this should define what a research is. It refers to a method imported from
science and philosophy - have a question - experiment or argue to answer
that question - but I do not believe such a focussed approach produces
innovation and new discoveries in the arts - in fact historically it wasn't
.My PhD was multidicplinary -in science and art. Ironically many people I
know in the sciences said the actual discoveries they made in their
research had nothing to do with their research questions but were
accidental observations they made along the way - yet in the arts I found
people far more dogmatic about"trying to stay focussed" , almost as if the
arts were desperately trying to justify its position in academies. I found
the people in the labs to be vibrant and creative - whereas in the arts
everyone was trying to take themselves so seriously. The actual geniuses I
met in the sciences never tried to "act smart" they were usually very down
to earth - in the arts ..... well....often desperate to show how clever
they were with their thesaurus always on hand.
I would argue the fundamental goal of the research is to add to the field
of human knowledge, to explore new areas to create things that haven't been
done before (not necessarily new technologies) - to conduct research. I am
aware of plenty of PhD's that have a perfectly worded "conceptual
framework" but add very very little if anything to the field of human
knowledge but split hairs over and over again in order to feign the
appearance of breaking new ground. On the other hand I knew some absolute
geniuses who came up with incredible original work - but they dropped out
as they were hopeless at writing. So is the goal of artistic research to
create incredible innovative new artforms that have never been done before,
works of art to rival the great classics of the past - or is it to provide
a tight conceptual framework. If research is always restricted to a tight
cohesive goal focussed on one outcome and avenue of investigation only -
many other avenues of discovery and many modern inventions would never have
been made.
No-one would deny that many of the greatest artists of our time made huge
progress and developments in the arts - but often would write nothing at
all about their work. They were also conducting research - I hold that we
need to reapraise our approach to the arts in academia and it seems that
whilst I am in a minority - there are some at least that hold the same
views . Otherwise we will be selecting for people who are good at writing
academese rather than actually creating innovative artwork - and of course
once they reach positions of power they will hold that this is the only
real way to conduct research and they will only open the gates to those
that think like them and that talk like them. Its a self perpetuating
monster and its a monster the public will not fund forever - thus the
sudden lurch towards making contacts with industry in ats academies.. There
of course exceptional people in academia capable of both writing and
creating fantastic artwork and some of the most inspired and original work
I have ever heard has been in academic circles it is a love hate
relatonship for me.
BTW I agree with you that constant reliance on technological
novelty is often vacuous - after all in the past artists were not
constantly expected to create new types of canvas, people were interested
in what they painted on that canvas - for my own work I see these things as
tools, its what I paint with those tools that matters to me not the tools
themselves - new tools just allow me to pant pictures I find more
interesting using new techniques.
On 18 August 2017 at 13:02, Phi Shu <phi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> true that International Art English
> <https://www.canopycanopycanopy.com/contents/international_art_english>
> (IAE) is problematic, at the same time there is an awful lot of
> sound/music/whatever based work that suffers from over dependence on
> spectacle and technical contrivance, a lot it is really banal, it has
> nothing to say about anything really (beyond: "isn't this a really
> interesting sound" - and often it's not).
>
> speaking as someone who jumped through the practice based PhD loop, I hated
> the writing, but a PhD without some form of
> intellectual/philosophical/conceptual narrative is simply not a PhD in my
> opinion, it shouldn't be awarded. A portfolio featuring a selection of
> random, disparate, creative works is not a PhD; equally one should not need
> a PhD to convince gatekeepers that one is qualified to produce interesting
> and engaging art; or that art bereft of anything interesting and engaging
> is somehow acceptable because the person who produced it has a PhD. Sure,
> what with the horrible funding climate and aggressive neoliberal politics
> we are dealing with, I can see why so many professional artists are now
> looking to retreat to academia, but is that a good reason to do a PhD? and
> down the line where are all the teaching hours going to come from? Then
> there's the practice led research versus research led practice debate,
> which is more valid in the context of doing a PhD? Arguably the latter.
>
> As for the creation of "immersive" experiences, do we need them? aren't we
> already up to our necks in Baudillarian hyerpreality, Donal Trump is
> president the USA ffs. A recent provocation
> <http://sonicfield.org/2017/08/against-immersion/> sums this up.
>
> Oh, also, Michael Edwards on "Why I am leaving UK academia
> <https://www.timeshighereducation.com/blog/uk-academia-has-gone-hell-
> handcart-and-i-quit>"
> should be required reading for anyone thinking of being an artist/composer
> based in academia. Which reminds me, I was at an event a few years back,
> where a well know UK academic composer - who was about to retire - gave a
> talk in which he advised against doing a PhD if composition is something
> one wishes to make a future out of it - because the working environment has
> become that horrible.
>
> If you want job security, become an administrator.
>
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Peter Lennox <p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > See also "Creative Inhibition: how and why?"
> >
> > A problem is that we have gradually moved to an insidious position where
> > "knowledge" has to be expressed in language to be taken seriously. So
> even
> > if one is talking about warm fuzzy subjectivity, one has to be able to
> > discuss in hard-edged objective terms. I don't know if anyone ever did a
> > PhD on: The parameters of "Nice" - that would be a challenge to get past
> > the research degrees committee!
> >
> > And this brings us to the kind of language that is commonly used in Art
> > Galleries. Much of it looks like it has actually been written by those
> > automatic bullshit generators (see: https://artybollocks.com/ ,
> > http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/ ; http://www.buzzwords4u.co.uk/ ;
> > https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/scigen/ )
> >
> > Sorry - we just may have strayed from the surround path...
> >
> > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> > School of Arts
> >
> > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > t: 01332 593155
> >
> > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> >
> > University of Derby,
> > Kedleston Road,
> > Derby,
> > DE22 1GB, UK
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> > Augustine Leudar
> > Sent: 17 August 2017 21:53
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> >
> > I think you misunderstand what I am saying but it's ok. Anyway you might
> > want to look at Stanford. Some of their top academics described academia
> as
> > a cancer for creativity :
> >
> > http://news.stanford.edu/news/2009/november2/art-academia-
> > debate-110409.html
> >
> > I believe some PhDs now have almost no written content whatsoever their
> > now. I think the whole concept of research having to be based on research
> > questions is outdated - it makes sense for some fields but not really for
> > art - in fact I think it hampers innovation. If art and music seeks to
> > express something that can't be expressed verbally - how can you base
> such
> > activity on verbal research questions with out turning art into something
> > dead and pretentious and utterly limited by verbal thought processes. The
> > solution in the arts seems to have been to make those verbal though
> > processes ridiculously convoluted as possible . Have fun with that one
> > anyway and good luck.
> >
> > On 17 August 2017 at 13:40, 霖の <951343...@qq.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you very much :) And there are couple of things I'd like to say:
> > > I agree with both of you and Thank you very much.. The proposal , I
> > > don't know how specific should it be.... And one of the problem is
> > > exactly what Augustine has mentioned, practice led to research. In
> > > that case, the objects... is more like a train of thought rather than
> > > just propose some problems for future research. I'm afraid that will
> > > limit the creation as well. So.. how to write a decent proposal really
> > confuse me.
> > >
> > >
> > > About the term, sound-based composition. It is academic.. at first
> > > time, I used electroacoustics. However, as I hope to combine club
> > > electronic music style with electroacoustic music, experiment music
> > > and so on...The purpose is to have both aesthetic value and art value.
> > > Sound is a quite potential sources and it is also the future of music,
> > > that's why I'm not rejected to use this term...For composition, as
> > > sound and electronic music is quite different from traditional music.
> > > Composers , always are audio engineer as well. And when we study sound
> > > composition, we also need to learn psychoacoustics so that we will
> > > know what we are doing exactly. Besides, combine club electronic means
> > > extract some approaches or ideas from it, and with principles, those
> > > sound works will be more humanization and interesting rather than
> > > serious all the time. There are many people have tried to find a more
> > > humanization way to present those art works, combination is one of a
> > choice.
> > >
> > >
> > > About the visual cues, I've read some paper write by audiovisual
> artists.
> > > To them, audio cues and visual cues are oneness rather than one
> > > dominate another. What I referred here is human always percept the
> > > world with all senses, even in dark room, they still keep using every
> > > senses which is intuitive. If artists use those principles to create
> > > sth special, that would be interesting and innovation. But indeed,
> > > sound always provided informations that visual cues cannot present.
> > > That's also a interesting point to be research.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------ Original ------------------
> > > From: "Peter Lennox";<p.len...@derby.ac.uk>;
> > > Date: Thu, Aug 17, 2017 04:42 PM
> > > To: "Surround Sound discussion group"<sursound@music.vt.edu>;
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient
> > > alters the visual conclusion, from two circles passing through each
> > > other, to a perception of them 'bouncing' off each other, is a good
> > > example of audio altering visual perception.
> > >
> > > it would be simplistic to say that one sense 'dominates' the other,
> > > since the real point lies in the comparative robustness of cues -the
> > > sense with the best signal-to-noise ratio is likely to dominate in
> > > particular instances.
> > >
> > > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > >
> > > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > >
> > > College of Arts, Humanities and Education
> > >
> > > School of Arts
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
> > >
> > > t: 01332 593155
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > >
> > > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > University of Derby,
> > > Kedleston Road,
> > > Derby,
> > > DE22 1GB, UK
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Sursound <sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu> on behalf of Augustine
> > > Leudar <augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> > > Sent: 16 August 2017 22:14:46
> > > To: Surround Sound discussion group
> > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> > >
> > > This is true too Dave - I know of one audio cue in particular (to do
> > > with a football bouncing off a wall) that can alter the way you see
> > > the way the ball moves - Ill have to dig it out. It really sucks being
> > > a sound artist sometimes ! oh so you're an audio guy.... What's a
> > > sound artist ? What like a sound engineer ? or a sound designer ?
> > > ooohhhhh a jumped up button pusher with delusions of grandeur........
> > >
> > > On 16 August 2017 at 20:06, Dave Malham <dave.mal...@york.ac.uk>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I, too, agree with Augustine. A point though that I would make, on
> > > > the
> > > side
> > > > so to speak, is, do not assume that visual cues always override
> > > > audio
> > > ones.
> > > > It is quite common for visual arts people to assume that the visual
> > > > overrules everything else but, although not as common, audio
> > > > perceptions can override visual ones at times. Anyway, good luck with
> > your phd.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 16 August 2017 at 15:29, Peter Lennox <p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Wot he said...
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > > > > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > > > > College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts
> > > > >
> > > > > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > > > > t: 01332 593155
> > > > >
> > > > > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > > > > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> > > > >
> > > > > University of Derby,
> > > > > Kedleston Road,
> > > > > Derby,
> > > > > DE22 1GB, UK
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> > > > > Augustine Leudar
> > > > > Sent: 16 August 2017 15:25
> > > > > To: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> > > > >
> > > > > As you probably know visual and other cognitive cues often
> > > > > override
> > > audio
> > > > > cues (see wallachs amazing cylinder experiment from 1940). I like
> > > > > to
> > > play
> > > > > with peoples minds in my installations and create illusions with
> > > > > sound
> > > -
> > > > > but these can be massively aided by the careful manipulation of
> > > cognitive
> > > > > and visual cues - for me for example the choice of location and
> > > > > how it looks is just as much a compositional decision as the
> > > > > choice of sounds, every sensory experience people have from the
> > > > > sight of a speaker, to
> > > the
> > > > > smell of the environment will have an associated meaning for
> > > > > listeners
> > > > and
> > > > > effect how they hear things, and how believable the world you are
> > > trying
> > > > to
> > > > > transport them to is..
> > > > > Cognitive cues are massively influential on how we hear and
> > > > > experience
> > > > the
> > > > > world - from branding to deciding one person has something more
> > > important
> > > > > to say because you know their name, etc etc - you can completely
> > > override
> > > > > audio cues - or massively enhance them if you are clever in their
> > use.
> > > > > However I would suggest practice led research for this kind of
> > > > > project
> > > -
> > > > I
> > > > > have heard so many things that sound very good on paper but dont
> > > actually
> > > > > work - to really add to the body of human knowledge I would say do
> > > > > it
> > > the
> > > > > other way round here - find out what works then write about it.
> > > > > There are loads of really interesting avenues of research in this
> > > topic -
> > > > > from intepoliation in HRTF data sets to various applications in VR.
> > > > > Although not sound based there is research for example in VR - you
> > > > > put
> > > a
> > > > > headset on and walk in a room - you think you are walking in a
> > > > > straight line but actually you are walking in a curve - the
> > > > > research is
> > > > determining
> > > > > how far visual cues can foll haptic ones, how much of a curve can
> > > > > you
> > > get
> > > > > away with.... There are many audio equivelants to this "curve".
> > > > > .....I
> > > am
> > > > > also involved in sound sculpture but not perhaps in the way you
> > > > > mean -
> > > I
> > > > > make actual sculptures with sonics bult into them - I like
> > > > > technology
> > > to
> > > > be
> > > > > hidden for the aforementioned cognitive reasons- I also do a lot
> > > > > of installations in natural environments that integrate
> > > > > psychoacoustic and cognitive research (such as the cocktail party
> > > > > effect and precedence
> > > > etc) .
> > > > > I can send you some papers I wrote on using these cues in sound
> > > > > installation and theatre if you PM me. I also would be wary of
> > > > > terms
> > > like
> > > > > "sound based music" it sounds like pure academese - I understand
> > > > > the importance of academic writing style you have the potential to
> > > > > write an interesting research project and create a great portfolio
> > > > > which
> > > actually
> > > > is
> > > > > clever and doesnt need to obscure its content with unnecessary
> > > > > esoteric language . My advice would be to follow your passion and
> > > > > not let
> > > yourself
> > > > > get led into something you're not really that interested in or
> > > > > that
> > > makes
> > > > > your supervisor feel safer - to finish you will need to be really
> > > > engaged.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 16 August 2017 at 13:45, Peter Lennox <p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > You probably have a supervisor, so I wouldn't want to interfere.
> > > > > > But it seems to me that your main aim is too broad, too vague.
> > > > > > You seem to be saying something like "the perception of music
> > > > > > partly relies on processes (neural, cognitive and psychological)
> > > > > > that exist for other than musical reasons - so how can this
> > > > > > principle be applied to enrich music and sound art?"
> > > > > > - but of course, composers have always done this. Take the
> > > > > > principle of "intuitive physics" (1993: 'Intuitive Physics', in
> > > > > > Eilan, McCarthy and Brewer, (eds.), Problems in the Philosophy
> > > > > > and Psychology of Spatial Representation; 99-112) - then compare
> > > > > > "flight of the bumble bee" with Prokoviev's "Dance of the
> > > > > > Knights" (a track on Romeo and
> > > > > > Juliet) - you can hear that they rely on extra-musical
> > > > > > associations about size (mass) and therefore momentum, and the
> > > > > > sorts of movement (acceleration, change of
> > > > > > direction) that might be expected for beings of differing masses.
> > > > > > (Also have a listen to Tomita's electronic renditions of
> > > > > > Debussey)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On the notion of sound sculpture, there are many artists
> > > > > > interested
> > > in
> > > > > > this - for example, The Morning Line (https://www.youtube.com/
> > > > > > watch?v=gipLCJr94Sg )
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, you have a very interesting topic area, and one in which
> > > > > > much is not known (an exciting area for research, then). But
> > > > > > this stage, of formulating a coherent proposal, is very hard
> > > > > > work. Simplicity is the key - trying to be really clear (to
> > > > > > yourself) what it is you want to know. That's a problem that all
> > > > > > academics wrestle with, all their
> > > > lives.
> > > > > > Good luck!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > > > > > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > > > > > College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts
> > > > > >
> > > > > > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > > > > > t: 01332 593155
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > > > > > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> > > > > >
> > > > > > University of Derby,
> > > > > > Kedleston Road,
> > > > > > Derby,
> > > > > > DE22 1GB, UK
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf
> > > > > > Of
> > > ??
> > > > > > Sent: 16 August 2017 12:33
> > > > > > To: sursound <sursound@music.vt.edu>
> > > > > > Subject: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for reply. It is really helpful.
> > > > > > The term I used , according to Landy's writing : typically
> > > > > > designated the art form in which the sound is the basic unit.
> > > > > > I'm thinking about it and developed main question and sub
> > > > > > questions,here is a brief description :
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1 The study purpose and sub-questions
> > > > > > 1.1 Main Purpose
> > > > > > For the perception mechanism of human being, every part of the
> > > > > > outer world is affecting the final cognition. Thus, as
> > > > > > sound-based music, the sources may naturally have extra-musical
> > > > > > information. How to use that information appropriately to create
> > > > > > artwork so that it could arouse people's association and
> > > > > > extra-musical experiences? And, How
> > > to
> > > > > > combine it with other art forms and effectively creates
> > > > > > interesting
> > > > > perception experiences?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1.2 Perception
> > > > > > For receiving and processing, sensory system will be used and
> > > > > > worked together all the time. For artwork creation, including
> > > > > > sound-based music composition, would it possible to break the
> > > > > > typical perception habit or used it to create artwork according
> > > > > > to perception
> > > principles?
> > > > > > 1.3Cognition
> > > > > > In this part, the research question focus on cognition process
> > > > > > (understanding through thought, experience, and existing
> > > > > > knowledge,
> > > > > etc.).
> > > > > > In the light of above theory, if sound-based music or
> > > > > > audiovisual artwork could follow the path of cognition process,
> > > > > > will it creates fantastic artwork that brings abundant
> > > > > > information even dramatic experiences? For example, using
> > > > > > symbolic melody, lyrics or sound with special meaning, and
> > > > > > composed them appropriately, it would be act
> > > like
> > > > > > "access tools" (Leigh Landy, 2007: 27) and enhance the
> > > > > > experiences to audiences and assist them understand the work
> > > > > > more easily. Thus, people will focus on experience the feelings
> > > > > > or interact with
> > > artworks
> > > > > > rather than struggle with questions like what is going on here.
> > > > > > 1.4 Development
> > > > > > To develop the research ideas basis on psychoacoustics and
> > > > > > cognitive psychology mentioned above, when combining the
> > > > > > sound-based artwork with other forms of art, will innovations
> > happen by this combination?
> > > > > > 1.5 Sound sculpture
> > > > > > As mention above, sound sculpture basis on sound-based music.
> > > > > > Essentially, music is trying to transmit experiences to
> > > > > > audiences, so how about creating sound sculpture? It is like the
> > > > > > natural world presented to us: when we come into a place, we
> > > > > > will hear and see the surroundings and then understand what has
> > > > > > happened here, so as "sound
> > > > > sculpture" mentioned here.
> > > > > > As I'm new to write proposal, what is the essential elements to
> > > > > > form
> > > a
> > > > > > research object and how specific should it be? I'm going to
> > > manipulate
> > > > > > the principles and compose serious of artworks . Then extract
> > > > > > the result to form a final dissertation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you very much,
> > > > > > Yilin
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> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Dr. Augustine Leudar
> > > > > Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> > > > > Company Number : NI635217
> > > > > Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> > > > > Belfast BT88LL
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> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and
> > > > > reserves the right to monitor email traffic.
> > > > > If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the
> > > sender
> > > > > and let them know.
> > > > >
> > > > > Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
> > > >
> > > > These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the
> > > > University
> > > >
> > > > Dave Malham
> > > > Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York
> > > > YO10 5DD UK
> > > >
> > > > 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dr. Augustine Leudar
> > > Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> > > Company Number : NI635217
> > > Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> > > Belfast BT88LL
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> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > > The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and
> > > reserves the right to monitor email traffic.
> > > If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the
> > > sender and let them know.
> > >
> > > Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr. Augustine Leudar
> > Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> > Company Number : NI635217
> > Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> > Belfast BT88LL
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > _______________________________________________
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> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
> >
> > The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and
> > reserves the right to monitor email traffic.
> > If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender
> > and let them know.
> >
> > Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
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> _______________________________________________
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>
--
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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