Distance, or in general virtual acoustics, is a good idea. Alternating between early/late reflections, air damping, level, and even Doppler for speed of movement could help with this sonification.
I'm no expert in aviation, but would this help the brain of the pilots or mislead them as to what is happening? *Pan Athen* SoundFellas <https://soundfellas.com/>, *MediaFlake Ltd <http://mediaflake.com/>* Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 9:44 PM Steven Boardman <boardroomout...@gmail.com> wrote: > I would love to make a sound do a death spiral motion . > With an LFO, on each axis, bit a load of doppler, distance attenuation and > filtering, i think i could kill the thread quite quickly.... > > On Wed, 8 Mar 2023, 17:00 Chris Woolf, <ch...@chriswoolf.co.uk> wrote: > > > Ta - looks interesting - there's always someone who's been there before;} > > > > Chris Woolf > > > > > > On 08/03/2023 16:21, Marc Lavallée wrote: > > > The article is freely available here: > > > https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20080042307 > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > Le 2023-03-08 à 11 h 15, Picinali, Lorenzo a écrit : > > >> Hello Chris, > > >> > > >> this might be interesting for you! > > >> > > >> > > > https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/154193120805200103?casa_token=CptzIp9vOaQAAAAA:fG10j5X-vgVL92L3YHFjBTRAyYUCHfVpsuYDrU3DcGX4wPgzym4ZZoLHSh2I2AfvIZrEyKpIQ54 > > >> > > >> > > >> I remember they also presented this work at ICAD in Paris in 2008, > > >> and if I remember well they won the best paper award! > > >> > > >> Best > > >> Lorenzo > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Lorenzo Picinali > > >> Reader in Audio Experience Design<https://www.axdesign.co.uk/> > > >> Dyson School of Design Engineering > > >> Imperial College London > > >> Dyson Building > > >> Imperial College Road > > >> South Kensington, SW7 2DB, London > > >> E: l.picin...@imperial.ac.uk > > >> > > >> http://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/l.picinali > > >> https://www.axdesign.co.uk/ > > >> https://www.sonicom.eu/ > > >> ________________________________ > > >> From: Sursound <sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu> on behalf of Chris > > >> Woolf <ch...@chriswoolf.co.uk> > > >> Sent: 08 March 2023 16:03 > > >> To: sursound@music.vt.edu <sursound@music.vt.edu> > > >> Subject: Re: [Sursound] [off-topic] Spirals > > >> > > >> > > >> ******************* > > >> This email originates from outside Imperial. Do not click on links > > >> and attachments unless you recognise the sender. > > >> If you trust the sender, add them to your safe senders list > > >> https://spam.ic.ac.uk/SpamConsole/Senders.aspx to disable email > > >> stamping for this address. > > >> ******************* > > >> Bringing things round in a circle (rather than a spiral).... > > >> > > >> Anyone any ideas how one could provide an audio horizon that could be > a > > >> mimic of the gyro artificial horizon? That could presumably add an > > >> additional warning of unintentional spiralling, and one that would > > >> signal a discrepancy between gravitational/centrifugal pull and > absolute > > >> vertical. > > >> > > >> I can see the problems of providing a height dimension with > headphones, > > >> and also a question of what audio signals would have sufficient rate > to > > >> provide the frequency of stimulus needed. ATC and TCAS would be some > > >> help but I think you would need rather more than just that. > > >> > > >> This is just coffee-time thoughts - I'm not planning to go flying any > > >> time soon;} > > >> > > >> Chris Woolf > > >> > > >> > > >> On 08/03/2023 13:23, t.mich...@posteo.de wrote: > > >>> Hi Panos! > > >>> > > >>> First of all: Welcome! > > >>> Second: YES you are definitely in the right place. > > >>> Third: If you have any question, feel invite to ask. :-) > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Take care and stay healthy > > >>> Cheers > > >>> > > >>> Thorsten > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Am 08.03.2023 00:08 schrieb Panos Kouvelis: > > >>>> I recently subscribed to this mailing list for insightful > > >>>> discussions on > > >>>> surround sound. > > >>>> > > >>>> Up 'till now, the material I have received is about aviation. > > >>>> > > >>>> Am I in the wrong place? > > >>>> > > >>>> :-) > > >>>> > > >>>> *Pan Athen* > > >>>> SoundFellas <https://soundfellas.com/>, *MediaFlake Ltd > > >>>> <http://mediaflake.com/>* > > >>>> Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:03 AM Sampo Syreeni <de...@iki.fi> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> On 2023-02-22, Fons Adriaensen wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> And in many cases the aircraft may very well be unstable in that > > >>>>> axis: > > >>>>>> if left alone, the roll angle will slowly increase. > > >>>>> Actually, most modern aircraft are stable in the bank axis as well. > > >>>>> Part > > >>>>> of why they have swept wings, bent wings and wingtips and the > > >>>>> like, is > > >>>>> to this regard. (Part of: most of it has to with approaching > > >>>>> transonic > > >>>>> flight. But not all.) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> The thing is though, and as you say below, the pilot won't feel > > >>>>> anything > > >>>>> weird when approaching a spiral. The built in stability of the > > >>>>> airplane > > >>>>> will keep everybody in their seat at 1g acceleration perpendicular > to > > >>>>> the floor, evenas the airplane banks to something approaching 90 > > >>>>> degrees, and loses all of its lift. Then it just falls, sideways. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> When that happens, you're in what's called a "death spiral", > because > > >>>>> it's extremely difficult to recover from the condition, and you > > >>>>> typically don't even know you've entered one. When you do, you as a > > >>>>> pilot are already in a state of spatial disorientation; you > > >>>>> *literally* > > >>>>> don't know which way is up and which down, and since the plane is > by > > >>>>> now > > >>>>> basically half-way inverted, with now absolutely no lift, losing > > >>>>> altitude like a falling rock, you as the pilot have very little > > >>>>> possibility of correcting. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> *Technically*, in *theory*, you often *could* recover, if you have > > >>>>> enough altitude, speed and sturdiness of airframe; even I have run > it > > >>>>> through in a game. But in practice, recovery from a well developed > > >>>>> death > > >>>>> spiral is mostly beyond human ability. Especially once you lose > > >>>>> height, > > >>>>> because at low altitudes, already going nose down, you can't even > > >>>>> convert high air speed/energy into a corrective manoeuvre before > you > > >>>>> hit > > >>>>> the terrain, and there will only be seconds to lose. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> This is then why the pilot flying is supposed to only look at the > > >>>>> instrumentation, and why there are auditory warnings about bank > > >>>>> angle on > > >>>>> the modern jets. The Swedish commercial midsize Boeing pilot, > > >>>>> Mentour, > > >>>>> on YouTube, is first rate in explaining all of this stuff. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Okay, so, finally, how would you recover from a well developed > death > > >>>>> spiral, presuming you realized you were in one? Well, the optimum > way > > >>>>> would be to use all of the airfoils at the pilot's control at the > > >>>>> same > > >>>>> time to convert kinetic and potential energy of the frame into > > >>>>> first 1) > > >>>>> orientation, and then 2) into safe height in level flight. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> The optimum control trajectory going there is universally wild, so > > >>>>> that > > >>>>> you can't even practice for it in a simulator. It can even be > > >>>>> chaotic, > > >>>>> in the true mathematical sense. Many of the attempts at automated > > >>>>> recovery I known of literally crashed on that point; you can't do > > >>>>> optimum control here, because it leads you into an unstable > > >>>>> calculation. > > >>>>> Instead, you have to have your algoritm flying off the optimum > > >>>>> path, in > > >>>>> order to keep a stability margin. (Knowing how much off the optimum > > >>>>> path > > >>>>> it should be, and what a stability margin even *is*, is to date an > > >>>>> unknown as well. It's difficult to quantify.) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> So, how would I fly out of a death spiral, suddenly and against > > >>>>> expectation fully knowing I was in one? Fully knowing which way, > how > > >>>>> fast, at which height, I and my aeroplane was going? Well, > > >>>>> obviously, I > > >>>>> would have to regain lift, evenas I was falling. I'd use ailerons > to > > >>>>> gain "level flight" evenwhile falling. While that was done, I'd > yoke > > >>>>> up, > > >>>>> no matter the orientation of the airframe (assuming I wasn't > > >>>>> downright > > >>>>> inverted), in order to gain altitude and *true* level flight. I'd > put > > >>>>> the engines in idle and maybe spoil the airfoil, for want of > > >>>>> structurally sound airspeed and the g-forces which necessarily come > > >>>>> after a recovery from a spiral. Something like that. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Even if I did all of that *just* right, I'd probably contact > terrain. > > >>>>> All on-board would be lost. Because recovering from a death spiral, > > >>>>> once > > >>>>> it's started and developed well, is pretty much an inhuman feat. > It's > > >>>>> almost impossible for a computer to do, as well. The many > algorithms > > >>>>> which have been tried out, taking control away from the human > pilot, > > >>>>> none of them have been shown to do any good either. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Fons, this is one of the other things I follow. Amateurishly, but I > > >>>>> still do. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7t4IR-3mSo > > >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhzaogGQNFU&t=1056s > > >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7N0pshAC0k > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Now the fun thing is, as my pilot friends say, you can actually > > >>>>> *even* > > >>>>> do a full, level, aileron roll on all of the AirBus jumbojets. > > >>>>> Definitely not recommended, might lose your licence, and you'd > > >>>>> have to > > >>>>> disengage a number of safety systems, then flying by eye and touch > > >>>>> alone. But I'm told all of them *can* do showflying manoeuvres if > > >>>>> need > > >>>>> be. My nerd friends even claim to me, if need be, the things might > be > > >>>>> capable of autonomous inverted flight; I'm not too sure if any > flight > > >>>>> manufacturer actually ever went so far, but if one did, it surely > > >>>>> would > > >>>>> be AirBus. Damn, woman, stop it right *here*! > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> A non-zero roll angle means that part of the lift force generated > by > > >>>>>> the wings is now sideways. > > >>>>> Now, once we've handled conventional aircrafts, let's take on > fighter > > >>>>> aircraft. The fifth generation ones, like the F22 and the F35. > Their > > >>>>> fly-by-wire flight control surface work in concert, and often in a > > >>>>> fully > > >>>>> different way. For example, instead of there being separate > > >>>>> spoilers, in > > >>>>> order to introduce a limited airfoil separation/stall, the primary > > >>>>> control surfaces introduce a time-limited and measured stall in a > > >>>>> servo > > >>>>> loop. And then not, again. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Those things basically fly themselves, strategically stalling some > of > > >>>>> the control surfaces when need be. For example, in order to > > >>>>> automatically come back from a leftward death spiral, the fighter > > >>>>> will > > >>>>> make its right back control surface stall, losing lift > > >>>>> momentarily, and > > >>>>> so roll the aircraft as well as make it pitch up, lose airspeed > > >>>>> because > > >>>>> of the increased drag, and so gain an amount of lift. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Fons, I like this kind of analysis. Optimum control, and where its > > >>>>> limits lay. This stuff is *fun*! > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> That - and not the rudder - is what makes the aircraft make a > turn. > > >>>>> The rudder is also a fun turn — pun intended. It's even "fun" in > the > > >>>>> death spiral recovery manoeuvre. Because you cannot efficiently > come > > >>>>> out > > >>>>> of a spiral using only ailerons. While coming down, in order to > > >>>>> rectify > > >>>>> the spiral, you actually have to apply a lot of rudder as well. > > >>>>> Otherwise you'll end up a whole lot more down, with disastrous > > >>>>> airspeed. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> The vertical component of lift is reduced, and a pitch-stable > > >>>>> aircraft > > >>>>>> will just by itself increase its airspeed to restore it. It can do > > >>>>>> that only by going down at that same time. > > >>>>> True. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Unless you watch the horizon or the attitude indicator, you will > > >>>>>> not be aware that this is happening. > > >>>>> True. Whence the 178 seconds above. Also, "spatial disorientation > in > > >>>>> aviation". This Youtube channel of mine, "Mentour", has done quite > a > > >>>>> number of features on just this thing. He's a commercial pilot, and > > >>>>> even > > >>>>> has access to flight simulators. See above even for him inverting > his > > >>>>> native 737 in one. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> As the roll angle increases, the g-force will apparently remain > > >>>>>> vertical (relative to the aircraft) but increase as well. > > >>>>> Actually the g-force does not increase at all. That's why the death > > >>>>> spiral is so nasty: you don't feel anything at *all*, evenwhile > > >>>>> you're > > >>>>> going nose down into the ground. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Much of that is because of the intrinsic stability of the aircraft. > > >>>>> Because the stability means the craft wants to stay at 1g towards > the > > >>>>> floor. While it stays that way — no matter its actual attitude — > you > > >>>>> won't feel anything off even if the thing is inverted in a barrel > > >>>>> roll — > > >>>>> a nice and harmless aerobatic movement — or in a death spiral — > with > > >>>>> at most two seconds to die. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> And at some point you will notice that you are pinned down in your > > >>>>>> seat and unable to move - you are effectively in a centrifuge, way > > >>>>> too > > >>>>>> fast, going down, and the g-forces will be so high that they can > > >>>>> break > > >>>>>> up the aircraft. > > >>>>> This only happens once you gained too much airspeed and try to > > >>>>> recover > > >>>>> by pulling up on the yoke. True, if you're already there, not much > > >>>>> can > > >>>>> be done to recover. But at least don't then pull up the yoke too > > >>>>> fast in > > >>>>> order to break the airframe. At max do something like a "gentle" 5g > > >>>>> curve, and if you then manage to not crash into the terrain, level > > >>>>> off > > >>>>> and apply some spoiling. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Ah, you too think about this. Hmm. 8) > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> To recover: > > 1. Reduce power to idle. > > >>>>> Preferably as soon as you know you're losing altitude. Because > > >>>>> you'll be > > >>>>> trading potential energy for kinetic energy/speed from the get go. > > >>>>> This > > >>>>> is also why I mentioned fighter jets and dog fighting from the get > > >>>>> go: > > >>>>> that energy count-down (or up) is how dogfighting has been counted > > >>>>> from > > >>>>> the start. It's how dogfights are won, and the energy management is > > >>>>> also > > >>>>> how planes are either crashed or landed safely. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>>> 2. Bring the wings level. This has to be done gently, to avoid > even > > >>>>>>> more mechanical stress. > > >>>>> Yes. However, this is difficult to do once you went into spatial > > >>>>> disorientation, your synthetic horizon is at something like 120 > > >>>>> degrees, > > >>>>> and you descend at a about a five kilometres per minute, from an > > >>>>> altitude of, say, a generous ten thousand feet. Within a thick > cloud > > >>>>> cover, with all of your instruments yelling at you at the same > time. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>>> 3. As the wings return to level, the excessive speed will put the > > >>>>>>> aircraft into a steep climb. > > >>>>> What is "level", here? In a death spiral, the optimum recovery will > > >>>>> take > > >>>>> you through a route where you'll *definitely* not be level. Your > nose > > >>>>> will be looking down, at an airspeed which is *way* over your > craft's > > >>>>> design limits. That will also take place well after you can > > >>>>> laterally, > > >>>>> in ailerons, balance the aircraft; as such, even a very little > > >>>>> take on > > >>>>> the ailerons, or the rudder, the yoke, would immediately either > stall > > >>>>> some control surface, or made better, tear each of them apart. And > > >>>>> you > > >>>>> don't really know what is "level" hear, either; even your > > >>>>> instrumentation is probably fucked up already; believe you me, no > > >>>>> inertial thingy ever survives the kind of vibration an aircraft > > >>>>> induces > > >>>>> on itself when put into a multiple g's acceleration, combined with > a > > >>>>> wide stall. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>>> Let it happen but keep the pitch angle under control. > > >>>>> Exactly so. "Let it happen." Many of the worst accidents on record > > >>>>> have > > >>>>> happened because pilots fought their planes, instead of "going > > >>>>> with the > > >>>>> flow" which a plane, designed to be statically stable from the > start, > > >>>>> would have done by itself. For example, (ya'll, prolly not Fons) > > >>>>> take a > > >>>>> look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot-induced_oscillation . > > >>>>> > > >>>>>>> You will regain some of the lost altitude, and airspeed will > > >>>>>>> decrease. > > >>>>> Recovery from a near miss death spiral is still more involved. > > >>>>> Because > > >>>>> you might have to operate the aircraft at structural load, and do a > > >>>>> recovery from a prolonged stall over all of the airframe. You might > > >>>>> actually have to "fly" your airframe over a minute in a full stall > > >>>>> over > > >>>>> every part of it, and then try to regain aerodynamic control. > "After > > >>>>> sinking, flying, and shaking like a rock from a cannon." > > >>>>> > > >>>>> It can be done. But nobody teaches you how to do this, and in > fact, I > > >>>>> don't know of *one* algorithm which has flown this route. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> 4. As you approach normal airspeed, bring back power and level > off. > > >>>>> That should be obvious, then. It's that third stage before "Profit" > > >>>>> which always slights the eye. ;) > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Ciao, > > >>>>> Moro. > > >>>>> -- > > >>>>> Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front > > >>>>> +358-40-3751464 <http://decoy.iki.fi/front+358-40-3751464>, 025E > > D175 > > >>>>> ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>> Sursound mailing list > > >>>>> Sursound@music.vt.edu > > >>>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > >>>>> here, > > >>>>> edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > >>>>> > > >>>> -------------- next part -------------- > > >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > >>>> URL: > > >>>> < > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230308/988a2b84/attachment.htm > > > > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> Sursound mailing list > > >>>> Sursound@music.vt.edu > > >>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > >>>> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Sursound mailing list > > >>> Sursound@music.vt.edu > > >>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > >>> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Sursound mailing list > > >> Sursound@music.vt.edu > > >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > >> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > >> URL: > > >> < > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230308/3142cd19/attachment.htm > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Sursound mailing list > > >> Sursound@music.vt.edu > > >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > >> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sursound mailing list > > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > _______________________________________________ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230308/a8636367/attachment.htm > > > _______________________________________________ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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