I also feel the need to say something here, since it is not really are the true off-roading that is the major energy problem. It may or may not be a problem of where it is done, but as in so many cases there are irresponsible individuals that probably does not represent the majority.
I learned to drive-off road first as a teenager with tractors in the field and forest, very little on-road use for farmers/foresters and if so, definitely not for pleasure on road transportation. I enhanced my of off-road education in the military, where I learned up to large 6-8 wheeler vehicles with trailers. I must say that I liked the off road experiences, especially in the small jeeps, and it probably added somewhat to my driving education. The problem with SUV is that probably nearly all of them never see an off road environment, it is cool to have them and there is where the stupidity starts. Many have some sort of complex that I do not want to mention, because then the flames will start to show for this email. They feel a power of some sort, in driving on-road with a SUV. It is however some that are using SUVs for towing trailers etc. and in this you can make a case for it. If you are a true responsible off-roader and only drive on-road to and from your off road environment, then you are probably using less fuel for your pleasure than the pleasure boater. So an expansion of the critics of off road driving and single this activity out, is not really productive. If the pleasure boater have the same instinct as most of the SUV owners, we can only be happy that they can't take their boats on-road. Just think about how the highways would look in rush hour, if they could go to and from work in their boats. I know that they often refer to cities as a Jungle, but I do not really think that you can motivate it as off-road environment where you need a SUV. For me you can take your SUV for off-road driving fun, but keep it exclusively for that and do not destroy/trespass without permission from landowners. Keep your SUV for your pleasure and have a fuel efficient car (preferably diesel) for your exclusive on road transportation. If you do not do that, you are irresponsible, without any doubts. Hakan At 02:22 AM 12/23/2002 +0000, you wrote: >Jessup, > >If you are referring to Harmon as a "Good Samaritain Green" you are >way off the mark. Harmon has advocated violence on many occasions. > >If you are going to bring up the point that you are a "Good Off- >roading Citizen," then you need to wear the colors of the jerk that >insists on taking his vehicle through private property just for the >fun of it. > >I was too a trail ridin' "Tread Lightly" off road runner. Many times >I ended upside-down having the time of my life. It got too expensive >for me and I decided that I would rather have tons of fun either >riding my bicycle or see if I could build a moped that was capable of >hauling my big butt around. I have done both and love it. > >If you choose to ride trails, be gentle and respectful. Also >remember that you are going to be labeled with the fool that tries to >do as much damage as possible with no regard to who may own the >property. > >Just don't get into a pissing contest (sorry for the colorful >language Keith) with everyone that disagrees with your views, it is >not worth it. > >I needed to chime in on this one. > >fred > > >--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "coachgeo3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > So I don't scare off to easy.... sorry that offends you. I have >the > > right to voice my opinion as much as others. It's called standing >up > > for what you believe in. Geeeeee funny that when the supposedly > > earth friendly Green folk stand their ground over and over it is ok > > but when someone against their views does it... then it is evil. > > Shows right there the intolerance and narrow mindedness in the > > air. Sounds like those that once stood their ground bashing > > Negro's and Gay's. Tsk Tsk. Will some never learn. > > > > You will notice that none of my words every sited that I as on > > offroader resorted to violence and a few of the so called Good > > Samaritan Green folk responses did claim to or threaten too. >So.... > > who is the good people here. In fact I have never heard of an > > offroader even speak, or write as evil of responses as I got > > previously much less resort to violence or threat of it toward > > persons and property. The sad thing is in this post you aired out > > your dirty laundry like a badge to wear. > > > > And if you really want to know, I got several emails off list by > > other offroaders who are members of this list in support of my > > comments last time and this. Many don't care to deal with the > > raging intolerance and narrow mindedness cause often these poor > > souls cause themselves harm all on their own with out much help. >I, > > on the the other hand feel though some of them on the way to >harming > > themselfs harm a few good people too so at times I speak out. Not > > often... maybe not often enough > > > > Sharing the earth "responsibly" > > > > GP Jessup III-coachgeo3 (notice I don't give a shiat if you put my > > name out there... its been there all along. BTW··. Was pointing out > > my name so quickly meant to be a subliminal threat? If so Im > > shaking in my boots. NAUGHTTTT > > > > > > > > --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > GP Jessup III-coachgeo3, has it somehow slipped your mind that > > you've > > > stated this case here before, and very much got the worst of it? > > Now > > > you come back a few months later and say it all over again as if > > it > > > never happened, using the arguments that got you such a drubbing > > last > > > time. I'm sorry, but that's just boring - if you really have > > > forgotten it all, then please go to the archives and look up the > > > thread "Open Season on Open Space", plus associated threads, and > > if > > > you still want to be so bold then try to find an argument that > > didn't > > > get blown away last time. > > > > > > You can start here if you like: > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=15122&list=BIOFUEL > > > > > > Fairly typical of the response you got: > > > > > > >Harmon, > > > > > > > >The tire spikes and razor wire may be a little severe but, > > > >I can empathise with your disgust. I have personally left a > > > >couple of dickheads laying crumpled in the dust(one got a > > > >good left hook and the other a nice kick in the balls) for > > > >their blatant disregard for my right to keep my property > > > >free from earth abusers. I believe that there will come a > > > >time real soon where people who commit crimes against the > > > >earth will be prosecuted with equal fervor as those who > > > >commit crimes against people. > > > > > > > >kris > > > > > > > >--- harmonseaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "coachgeo3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I am an avide offroader and we have seen PUBLIC land > > > > > closed to the > > > > > > PUBLIC way to much. Yes... their are peope who abuse > > > > > the land but > > > > > > lets punish that small percentage not the larger > > > > > percentage of those > > > > > > who do not. > > > > > > > > > > All, and I mean *ALL*, motorized offroad use needs to > > > > > be stopped > > > > > ASAP. And that includes motorboats. There's just no > > > > > excuse for > > > > > polluting and using up precious resources for recreation. > > > > > The noise > > > > > factor alone is reason enough. If the gov't won't do it, > > > > > I'll bet tire > > > > > spikes in the trails and barbed wire neck high will. > > > > > I have property in the north woods in a national > > > > > forest -- the > > > > > off-roaders laugh at no-tresspass signs. People in WI and > > > > > MN have been > > > > > threatened, assualted, and even run over when trying to > > > > > stop > > > > > off-roaders from trespassing on their property. > > > > > Off-roaders are a pack > > > > > of disgusting subhuman vermin the world could do without. > > > > > Anybody too > > > > > lazy to get off their fat ass and walk, ski, paddle, or > > > > > sail shouldn't > > > > > be allowed in the outofdoors. > > > > > > You say: > > > > > > >[pirate4x4.com] I know of thousands of 4 wheelers that take >pride > > in > > > >their good stewardship of mother earth. > > > > > > MM's cross-post was about future energy supplies, about America > > going > > > to WAR - KILLING people - to commandeer oil supplies in other > > > people's countries (property right? - who's talking about >property > > > right?), my response mentioned (as usual) that America WASTES >half > > > its (?) energy (at the very least), and you're talking about > > driving > > > gas-guzzlers for FUN?? - and claiming that people who do it can >in > > > some miraculous manner be acting as good stewards of mother >earth? > > > Pardon me (or not) but that is BIZARRE. > > > > > > SPORTS Utility Vehicles - what the hell is that? Utility is not > > > sport, nor sport utility, and vehicles, especially these greedy > > ones, > > > are not TOYS. > > > > > > There's a war on, in case you didn't notice - no, not the next > > Iraqi > > > war that hasn't quite yet happened, that's just another phase, > > it's > > > been going on for some time, with no shortage of "collateral" > > victims > > > - DEAD people. Hundreds of thousands of them, or more. During >WWII > > in > > > Britain the message was: "Is your journey really necessary?" Why > > > don't you ask yourself that, and then come and tell us about SUVs > > and > > > good stewardship. Good grief. > > > > > > >I love my offroading adventures yet I see upcomming fuel >problems. > > > > > > Get a burro. > > > > > > >My decision to go with Bio-Diesel/ Veg oil use is largely based >on > > > >wanting to do better for the economy and to further protect the > > land > > > >I love to explore, Yeah protect... as in wont have to dig a new > > > >wells for oil to provide my and other offroaders fuel needs. >And > > > >the Veg oil use keeps the farmers working. > > > > > > Wasting energy is wasting energy, it doesn't matter what sort of > > > energy you're wasting - simply substituting nice green biofuels > > for > > > horrible dirty fossil fuels is no less irresponsible if you're > > > wasting it. And you are. Unimog 404s were not built for "fun". > > > > > > Keith > > > > > > > > > >Reply Below > > > > > > > >--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Some interesting ideas Earl. I'm going to take the liberty of > > > >passing > > > > > them along to a few other discussion areas. > > > > > > > > > > MM > > > > > > > > > > >Thanks for the post; it was a reasonable editorial. It >really > > > >makes > > > > > >me angry to to hear counter-criticisms like "denying freedom > > of > > > >choice > > > > > >to hundreds of thousands of sublimely happy SUV owners" > > > >and "Alliance > > > > > >against Fun." These people just don't get it (because of > > course > > > >our > > > > > >government and media won't tell them the truth). People > > shouldn't > > > > > >have have the right to drive irresponsible cars just to >please > > > > > >themselves any more than they have the right to drive on the > > > >sidewalk > > > > > >for fun: they're both extremely dangerous. Indeed the >former > > is > > > >in > > > > > >the long run going to cause a lot more death. So I would > > make the > > > > > >case a little more forcefully: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >What makes an SUV an irresponsible car? Irresponsible drivers > > make > > > >mistakes... they are not sports cars and should not be driven as > > > >one. > > > > > > > >Otherwise....Extremely Dangerous offroad? Are u nuts.. While > > there > > > >is a danger is is very small for the avg. offroaders and the > > danger > > > >is to the driver who chose to take the risk not bystanders. > > > >Obviously the danger goes higher for off road speed racing but > > again > > > >to the driver. It remains extremely low in the Rock Crawling > > > >competitions. ATV use is new relatively. The learning curve is > > > >kicking it. Their speeds are coming down and their good > > stewardship > > > >of land they use is on the rise. > > > > > > > >As an AVID offroader (Lightly published amateur journalist in > > > >offroad circles, and Moderator of a well know hardcore 4x4 web > > site > > > >[pirate4x4.com] I know of thousands of 4 wheelers that take >pride > > in > > > >their good stewardship of mother earth. There are far less jerks > > > >and uneducated offroaders and it is they that cause problems. > > > >Unfortunately it is the Jerks and uneducated that are visible and > > > >what opinions are based on. The offroading world is working VERY > > > >hard to reach the uneducated offroaders and to curb the Jerks. > > > > > > > >I love my offroading adventures yet I see upcomming fuel >problems. > > > >My decision to go with Bio-Diesel/ Veg oil use is largely based >on > > > >wanting to do better for the economy and to further protect the > > land > > > >I love to explore, Yeah protect... as in wont have to dig a new > > > >wells for oil to provide my and other offroaders fuel needs. >And > > > >the Veg oil use keeps the farmers working. > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Your use of Yahoo! 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