In none of the group you listed do the people rule. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden
> > Steve, > > By the way democracy comes from the Greek > word demos = population, people and > kratein = rule > > An other tip, > > Democracy (demokratein = people rule) was a new > way of ruling Athen, after the victory over the Persians > 480 BC. > > Already then, both direct and indirect (proxy by representative) > was practiced. If you start from there in the search engines, > you might get somewhere. Otherwise, god help us, you have > to start to read something called books. It will be faster if > you go directly to history books and start around 500 BC. > > > Hakan > > > At 11:13 PM 4/12/2003 +0200, you wrote: > > >Steve, > > > >You are jumping about 2,000 years in the history > >of democracy, at least with the links that you are > >referring to. None of those links are definitions of > >democracy, they are applications of democracy. > > > >During 2,200 years democracy have trying to > >find the balance between direct democracy and > >representative democracy. You have to do better > >than this, if you want to tell me the definitions and > >who is deciding what is democracy or not. > > > >Hakan > > > > > >At 04:40 PM 4/12/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > >http://www.sispain.org/english/history/monarchy.html > > > > > >http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy > > > > > >http://www.jura.uni-sb.de/law/GG/gg0.htm > > > > > >http://www.elysee.fr/ang/index.shtm > > > > > >http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108012.html > > > > > >you can use a search engine too. This is basic knowledge. > > > > > >Steve Spence > > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > > >& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > > >http://www.green-trust.org > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > >Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 4:21 PM > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Definitions by whom, what circumstances and when? > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > At 03:19 PM 4/12/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >not pure democracy, by definition. pure democracy is almost as bad as > > > > >anarchy. you asked, I gave. disagree if you wish, but these are the > > >accepted > > > > >definitions. > > > > > > > > > >Steve Spence > > > > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > > > > >& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > > > > >http://www.green-trust.org > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > >Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 3:05 PM > > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and none of them are democracies? > > > > > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > At 02:47 PM 4/12/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > >officially? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Steve Spence > > > > > > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > > > > > > >& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > > > > > > >http://www.green-trust.org > > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > >From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 2:21 PM > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is UK then? - constitutional monarchy > > > > > > > > What is Canada then? - confederation with parliamentary democracy > > > > > > > > What is Australia then? - democratic, federal-state system > > >recognizing > > > > >the > > > > > > >British monarch as sovereign > > > > > > > > What is Spain then? - parliamentary monarchy > > > > > > > > What is Sweden then? - constitutional monarchy > > > > > > > > What is France then? - republic > > > > > > > > What is Germany then? - federal republic > > > > > > > > What is Switzerland then? - federal republic > > > > > > > > > > > > > >and the USA - federal republic; strong democratic tradition > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am very interested in your definitions of above countries. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 02:00 PM 4/12/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >A democracy is mob rule. A republic is democracy with a > > >constitution > > > > >that > > > > > > > > >specifies what limits the mob has. our 3 way system of > > government > > >is > > > > >set > > > > > > >up > > > > > > > > >with checks and balances that prevent any one group from over > > >ruling > > > > >the > > > > > > > > >rights of others. It's quite simple in a complex way. It works > > >for > > > > >us. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Steve Spence > > > > > > > > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > > > > > > > > >& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > > > > > > > > >http://www.green-trust.org > > > > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > >From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 1:23 PM > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My logic is not broken, but you are one of the few that I > > >heard, > > > > >that > > > > > > > > > > claims that US is not a democracy. In fact, you are claiming > > >that > > > > > > > > > > democracy does not exist. Because if democracy is > > connected to > > > > > > > > > > if it is Republic or the opposite a Kingdom like UK, I am > > >afraid > > > > >that > > > > > > > > > > if it does not exist in a republic, it for sure does not > > exist > > >in > > > > >a > > > > > > > > >Kingdom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding possibilities for Bush to suspend elections, I am > > >not as > > > > > > > > > > sure as you. Bush, like Hitler, was given some extraordinary > > > > >powers > > > > > > > > > > after 9/11 and the fire in Reichtaghaus. Anyway, I think and > > >hope > > > > >that > > > > > > > > > > you are right when it comes to Bush. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still think that you are muddling up this about democracy > > >and > > > > > > > > > > by talking about a Republic not being a democracy, only > > >reinforces > > > > > > > > > > my feeling. On the other hand, you are not alone, because Jeb > > >Bush > > > > > > > > > > called Spain a Republic when he visited here, To the > > amusement > > >of > > > > > > > > > > all journalists, talk shows and comedians here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 12:10 PM 4/12/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >You are confused. The US is not a democracy, it's a > > republic. > > > > >It's a > > > > > > > > >common > > > > > > > > > > >mistake, and many of our own officials slip up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >BTW, where did I give a definition of democracy in the below > > >post > > > > >? I > > > > > > >was > > > > > > > > > > >discussing Sweden's version of socialism. George Bush, > > unlike > > > > >Hitler, > > > > > > > > >could > > > > > > > > > > >not abolish elections. He's not able to in our system. "By > > >the > > > > > > >people" > > > > > > > > >never > > > > > > > > > > >disappeared. It still is and will continue to be so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Your "logic" is broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Steve Spence > > > > > > > > > > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > > > > > > > > > > >& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.green-trust.org > > > > > > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 11:57 AM > > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Steve, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We discussed democracy, not party politics. I cannot > > > > > > > > > > > > understand how you can confuse this issues. According > > > > > > > > > > > > to your definition, US is a lesser democracy when the > > > > > > > > > > > > democrats have the presidency like Jack Kennedy, > > > > > > > > > > > > Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton etc. and more democracy with > > > > > > > > > > > > the republicans Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, senior > > > > > > > > > > > > and junior Bush. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have heard a lot of definitions on democracy, but I > > >think > > > > > > > > > > > > that this is the funniest one. So if George W. Bush, like > > > > > > > > > > > > Hitler, manage to abolish new elections, US would > > still be > > > > > > > > > > > > the greatest democracy on earth, because the politics > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > George W. Bush represent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where did "by the people for the people" disappear? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:12 AM 4/12/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >socialism is used in this context as a country that > > takes > > > > >from > > > > > > >all to > > > > > > > > > > > > >support all, instead of people doing for themselves. > > I do > > >not > > > > > > >need or > > > > > > > > > > >want > > > > > > > > > > > > >the government taking care of me (and charging me a > > >princely > > > > >sum > > > > > > >for > > > > > > > > > > >doing > > > > > > > > > > > > >do) I'm better able to do it myself, for less. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Steve Spence > > > > > > > > > > > > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > > > > > > > > > > > > >& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.green-trust.org > > > > > > > > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > >Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 5:44 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I would not consider a socialist country like Sweden > > >to > > > > >be > > > > > > > > >superior > > > > > > > > > > >to > > > > > > > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >USA. Swede's may not concur. Americans I know who > > >have > > > > >moved > > > > > > > > >there, > > > > > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Swedes that have moved here, both say that each has > > >it's > > > > > > >moments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aarghhh! You said the S-word! We'll all be > > murdered in > > >our > > > > > > >beds!! > > > > > > > > >LOL! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Steve Spence > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable > > >Technology: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.green-trust.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 3:20 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MH, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I expected to hear from you, after reading the > > >links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I gave you, especially if you looked at this > > >document, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2002/en/pdf/backone.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Human developing index > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you go through it, you will find that the > > >"Swedish > > > > > > > > >democracy" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is superior than the "American democracy" on some > > > > >minor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issues as social security, human rights, children > > > > >labor, > > > > > > > > > > >corruption, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > equality between sexes, education, wealth gap, > > >etc. > > > > >That > > > > > > >is > > > > > > > > >why > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is more difficult to impose "American > > > > > > >democracy" in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sweden than in Iraq, contrary to the US > > >administration > > > > > > > > >perception. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But who knows, military superiority can change > > >most > > > > >things > > > > > > >and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we cannot have something that is better than the > > > > >American > > > > > > >can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we? I guess that Sweden must be liberated also. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 10:46 PM 4/10/2003 +0200, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >MH, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2002/cpi2002.en.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Sorry, 2001 list the Netherlands was on shared 5 > > >with > > > > > > >Sweden, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >now it is Singapore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2002/en/pdf/backone.pdf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Human developing index > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://hdr.undp.org/reports/default.cfm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Human development reports. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >At 02:49 PM 4/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had a moment filled with laugh and anger > > >when > > > > >I > > > > > > >looked > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > at an CNN interview with a high ranking US > > > > >official. > > > > > > > > >This > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enlightened idiot said "it is one thing to > > >bring > > > > > > > > >democracy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to a country like Sweden, but more > > difficult > > >to > > > > >a > > > > > > > > >country > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > like Iraq". As democracy Sweden is known as > > >one > > > > >of > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > oldest and best in the world and is in the > > >fifth > > > > > > >place, > > > > > > > > > > >together > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with the Netherlands, of least corrupted > > > > >countries > > > > > > >in > > > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > > > >world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > US is in 16th place, far closer to Nigeria > > >who > > > > >is > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > >worst. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey Hakan where do I found this ranking > > >report ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Details, details more details please. 8^} > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > > > > > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! 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