Dear Pannirselvam >Dear and respected Keith Addision > > Thank you very much about your keen interest about biogas >technology developments.Your constant help about several internet >useful link are making us to learn a lot.i am very sorry not very >clear some points > I beleive the sucess of any group depends on the person who >need to be not only co-ordinator , doorman , but above all the >leadership quality too , because all of us are participating >voluentary work.
... well, okay... :-) >The group is moving in correct direction . That's the important bit, thankyou! > Solid residues from food , agricultural wastes and any >vegatable wastes are made of natural polymeric materials such asd >cellulose, lignin and hemicellulose .They are dificult to be >attacked by microbes OR ENZYMES , thus need long time for >bioderadation and hence need treatments befor biodegradations. >Mecanical, themal , chemical treatments used before biodigestion are >known as pretreatments. > Biogas can be poduced form lingocellulosics but need 120 >days, thus not economically desirable. > Biodigestion is possible using some solid residues examplo, >food waste as it is , without any need for pretreatments , but >fibrous and woody residues need to be pretreated to improve the >process. Why not pre-composting? I'm not nearly as familiar (yet) with biogas as with composting, but I think the parameters are similar except for aeration and moisture content. More intractable materials will break down very rapidly in a thermophyllic (hot) compost pile if the overall C:N ratio is somewhere between 25:1 and 35:1, moisture content about 65-70% and with a plentiful air supply (preferably from underneath). Such a compost pile will reach at least 60 deg C (or much more) in a day or two; a few days to a week under such conditions would prepare such materials for a biogas digester, only requiring increased moisture content. Mechanical treatment would be shredding to increase the surface area, and perhaps stirring to increase aeration. With composting both these can be useful but are certainly not necessary. It seems you're managing to treat food wastes directly without pre-treatment because the C:N ratio is already within the correct parameters; cellulose material needs the addition of nitrogenous material, such as manure, fresh green plants, etc. Correcting the C:N ratio might be simpler and more economical than pre-treatments. I think pre-treatments would be an extra step, a deterrent to the technology being taken up at local level. Adjusting the C:N ratio first and/or pre-composting might also seem to be such a deterrent, but I believe biogas and composting should go together as a package for optimum results - it could be presented as a simplifying rather than a complicating factor. Even without a need for pre-composting, composting is needed for post-treatment of the sludge before it can be used safely as a soil amendment, and to ensure reliable cut-off of the pathogens, if human and/or animal manure is being used as a feedstock. Composting can also provide a heat source to maintain the biogas digester at the optimum temperature (probably mesophyllic). Much more about composting here: http://journeytoforever.org/compost.html > We will be surely give full details in future , as yet our >design work is going on very slowly. Good, no hurry. regards Keith > sd >Pannisrselvam > > > >Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Hello Pannirselvam > > >Hello Eong and Keith addision > > > > Thank you for your keen interest about the more discussion of > >biogas here in yahoo biofuel group , which our small research > >group in Brasil also believes too have good green future , in > >addition to bio oil and bidiesel of real energy economy where as H2 > >will be the virtual one using this real energy carrier .The simple > >bioreactor can also recover energy from waste of urban , > >agricultural and animal of alltypes , including the glycerine and > >ester , if properly designed. > >We're working on integrating biogas digestion and composting (hot >compost, aerobic, thermophyllic) along with biofuels production - I >think they all fit together very well, and can be adapted to fit >almost anywhere, with or without the biofuels production bit, as >required. > > > Our group is designing biodigester horizontal rectangular > >tanque WITH locally made bricks or sand ciment blocks, covered > >rectangular plasic sheet suported by plastic nets all housed under > >rectangular wooden box, all to making use of local materials and > >manpower. > >Do you have any photographs, or drawings? What are the capacities, >production, etc? > > > The gas generated can be compreesed and put in gas cylinder > >of cooking gas, all are available in all the place of Brasil. > >How do you compress it? Small-scale compression seems to be an >obstacle - if it could easily be overcome then we could include >methane as a mobile fuel as well as a static energy source. As here, >for instance - Robert referred to this link: > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/methane_bate.html >Put a chicken in your tank > >This is from one of the stories about Harold Bate: > >"Bate has fitted his digester tank with a safety valve set for 60 >p.s.i. "just in case". Pressures in the extractor seldom reach a >third that level, however, because Harold considers a digester >internal pressure of 20 p.s.i. to be the signal to start up a >high-pressure compressor (of the type used for filling aqualung >diving bottles) and pump the collected gas from the extractor into an >ordinary high-pressure bottle. > >"A filter between the digester and pressure bottle extracts the small >quantities of phosphoric acid and ammonia that are present and the >remaining almost-pure methane liquefies at a pressure of 1110 p.s.i. > >"Bate finds that it takes about one-half hour of steady pumping to >fill a 32-pound (4.5 Imperial gallon) bottle to its capacity of >liquid methane. This figures out to approximately 200 cubic feet of >dry gas... or a fuel equivalent of seven gallons of good petrol >(about eight and three-quarter gallon of high-test gasoline, to >readers in the US)..." > >Is this feasible locally, or something like it? > > > The solid resdiues are fermented aerobically after milling > >using seleted strain of fungus to accelerate composting using little > >urea, then the composted materials are solubilzed using bacterias > >grown with the solution of the out put of the biodigesters. > > > > THIS TWO STAGE BIOLOGICAL PRETREATMENTS CAN BE EASILY > >IMPLEMENTED TO MAKE FUEL FROM BIODEGRABLE SOLID RESIDUES , > >AGRICULTURAL, URBAN AND ANIMAL WASTES. > >Sorry, I don't understand this - solid residues? You mean the manure >etc? What is the purpose of the pretreatment? Is it really necessary >- why not just put it straight into the digester? > > > The compressed biogas can easily suppliment with biodisel and > >bioiol made from bimass in rural areas.This can be aapropriate > >ecological solution under developing stage by our small research > >groups. > > > > Technical colaborations are welcome to make our research sucess. > >Our project has finished the design stage, will be soon implemented > >and operated both de biogas and together with biooil project of > >lower cost for small scale power generations.In addition we wish to > >make biodeisel from bio oil from wood. > > > > Thanks again our group leader,to make our group one of the best > >working group of biofuel, who really move the discussion in correct > >directions for real world problems. > >Thankyou! But you're too generous, I'm not a leader, just the doorman >really. :-) > > >I also feel that this group is doing a lot to make deveoped > >countries technical experiences to developing one to make great > >green future for biofuel and all our group members to > >That's a very important goal for me, I really hope it's true. > >Best wishes > >Keith > > > >sd > > > >Pannirselvam > > > > > > Two reactor in batch operations need tecnical > >skill, when one is not operating , other need to be cleaned and > >charged with raw materials, > > > > T > > > >Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Hello Eong and Pannirselvam > > > >Could you provide a description of the technologies you're using? > > > >I'd welcome more discussion of biogas issues and technologies - we do > >have it, but not enough, IMO. Very much on-topic here. Recent > >discussion on the composition of "natural gas" (LPG) and other > >sources of methane came close. > > > >We've discussed these before, among others - bag digesters: > > > >http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/ibs/info/ecuador/install-p >olydig.htm > >How to install a polyethylene biogas plant > > > >http://www.fao.org/WAICENT/FAOINFO/AGRICULT/AGA/AGAP/FRG/Recycle/biodi > >g/manual.htm > >Biodigester installation manual > > > >Are your units similar? > > > >Re locally available raw materials, I wonder what could be adpated to > >serve the purpose of a polyethylene bag... When you see something > >like this it seems anything's possible! > >http://www.manalagi.com/jamesplace/indonesia/sopi/index.html > >Culture Corner Archive: Makin' Moonshine > > > > > Our university research group situated in the the city o Natal, > > >Northeast of Brazil ina na under developed area of Brazil, > > >different than the economically developed area of the south of > > >Brazil , under my coordination have technical resource for the > > >new low cost design for biogas from solid residues regarding > > >inovative design..We wish to lend helping hand to have joint > > >effort to solve the problems there and our research students wish > > >to lend the helping hand also to you. > > > I thank the leader of this biofuel group , who does a lot to > > >bring the people all over the world and do very seroius work and > > >wish to thank all of them related to biofuel for the very serious > > >work. Let us join hand help each other by sharing our technical > > >experiences. > > > >Indeed yes, that's exactly what it's for! > > > >Best wishes > > > >Keith Addison > > > > >sd > > > > > >Pannirselvam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >ONG San Guan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >Hi, > > > > > > > >I am sourcing for biogas technologies using human or animal >excreta as the > > > >raw material in remote highlands of the Mekong Water Shed Region > >( Myanmar, > > > >Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Provinces of Western China >like Tibet, > > > >Sichuan, Yunnan and Guangxi ). Present ones in use may succumb to SARS > > > >epidemic threat. One other factor is the use of local raw material for > > > >building the equipment; indigenous wood and bamboo are plenty in > >that area. > > > > > > > >Any input would be appreciated........EONG ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! 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