Dick Carlstein wrote: >think some of this needs answering:
Then and now still, but let it slide. "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert, author (1754-1824). Progress here is not on the cards. I've said what I had to say, responding to this in any detail would not be conducive to anything much. Other than this - "pay-up time" eh? :-) You want me to post private letters, from people who might well be your competitors, to a public forum? Or instruct them to join the forum so they can have a fruitless argument with you? Just so you can prove you're the only one in step? You've failed to demonstrate that they're wrong. I said all I intend to say of what they've been telling me. Accept it or call me a liar, whichever pleases you. If you decide to call me a liar, I suggest that to support your claim you first find other known instances where I've lied in such a manner. As for "posturing", you know very well what it means, and that in using it you imputed dishonest intentions to those paying attention to standards requirements. As "diddle" also means "cheat". Loaded language. Your response to this is but your usual obfuscation whenever the dreadful possibility raises its ugly head that Dick Carlstein may be shown to have been - AARRGHH! - WRONG about something, perish the thought. Mead? Drink it yourself. Keith Addison >From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Keith Addison >To: <mailto:biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com>biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 11:50 AM >Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] big oil > > >keith, i think you miss my point. > >On the contrary Dick, I think you miss mine. Not the first time we've >exchanged that set of words. > >and i hope it wont be the last !! dialectically speaking, of course !! > >If Volkswagen does that....they'll be using Camillo's figures, which >can't be so >easily knocked, they're genuine. That needs fixing. Your way won't >fix it. > >if vw acts as camillo claims, they can kiss the usa market goodbye. >just mention cetane, and that's the end of the story. camillo does >not mention cetane once. > >and when you buy gas, which is something everybody can understand, >octane is clearly shown at the pump. the writing on the wall is that >the same will happen with diesel. astm/nbb calls for 40, and the >europeans want 50. we have that problem here in south america. >brazil has lower cetane standards than argentina, so every time you >cross the border to brazil in a diesel car, out comes the cetane >enhancers. > >that's why, as i said before, mercedes is playing possum on this 'non-issue'. > > >that's why i cited the argentine example. two years ago nobody here > >had heard of biodiesel. today everyone wants in. > >That's not confined to the Argentine. Each case is special of course, >but the fact is that biodiesel has taken off worldwide in the last >two years. > > >but the reasons are 100 % economic. > >That's not true. Argentines who write to me tell me otherwise. > >tell is one thing. do is another. there is only one commercial >operation in argentina making and marketing biodiesel. it belongs to >coco menenchkian, who operates out of pilar, close to buenos aires. >he transesterifies in a standard reactor, uses virgin oil, meth, and >naoh, and does NOT wash, or recoup alky (thing actually reeks of >alky). he sells biodiesel at fifty cents a litre or so, vs sixty or >so that fossil costs. there are two more operations in argentina to >date, both using our plants, but none of them sell the stuff, they >use it. we are about to deliver our third plant, and again it will >go to an end user. > >we've had dozens of people contact us regarding plants. they all >want to know what the finished biodiesel will cost them. not a >single inquiry has mentioned standards, or emissions, or lubricity, >or power loss, or nox. just $$$. > >but i suppose that if you asked greenpeace and such, they would >mention eco, not lolly. > >yet these are not the people making or using biodiesel here in argentina. > >knudsen in tres arroyos makes the stuff at home. he's been trying >for a year now to float a gvt. sponsored multi million dollar >project, but no luck so far. first thing the governor of buenos >aires province did when shown the project was to have a study made >by a local consulting firm to determine what the price would be, >using virgin oil. (u$s 0.36 was what they came up with). no emission >study was ordered. just $$$ as i said before. > >i would welcome a posting on this matter by the 'argentines' who >write to you. pay-up time, keith.... > > >so i propose we stop posturing regarding standards, some of which, > >like cetane, cannot be readily measured without a lab ic engine. > >Why are you using a loaded word like "posturing"? > >why is it loaded ? please explain keith, after all english is an >acquired language for me. > >to me posturing is assuming an attitude for the sake of an audience. >should i start using one line sentences to promote gc, and/or reject >nir testing, and in support of said one liners would address >marginal issues, evade main issues, and support my stand on the >basis of corporate cubicle hearsay, methinks i would be posturing. > >bluffing might be a good synonym. > >a bit like an adult talking 'down' religion to a bunch of kindergaden kids. > > >because it's the layman, after all, that's going to make this work, or not. > >That's also not true. It requires a broad strategy covering >everything from the local tractor driver to George W. Bush - who's >just-approved energy plan, incidentally, includes a 100 million >gallon reserve of biodiesel, which certainly wouldn't have happened >two years ago. > >two years ago congress was also not discussing opening up the arctic >to oil exploration/pumping which will do a hell of a lot more harm >than the bio reserve will do good. 100 million gallons are the >equivalent of one third of one percent of fossil use in usa. or >fifty percent of total installed biodiesel capacity in the usa. take >your pick. in terms of the usa, it's fly shit. > >in the usa, biodiesel will only come of age when b20 is enforced in >lieu of having to switch engines, or low bio content is used to >compensate low sulphur diesel. when this happens, it will be >happening for $$$ reasons. cheaper to use b20 than to re-engine, and >again cheaper to use bio than other available lubricity enhancers. > >its happening on its own, keith, not because of a given 'strategy'. >it's being fuelled by money and greed, and the eco angle is just >frosting. and it's being fought all the way by many interested >parties, not just oil. at this stage, positioning is the name of the >game. and until you position yourself, you downplay what you covet. > > >i gave alek's visual 'standard' as an example of this. pH is also > >easy to measure, using cheap paper indicators, and is another > >standard that is 'understandable'. density is, methinks, in the same > >boat. and if we're worried about pour points, and such, running the > >biodiesel through the freezer, and then filtering to 10 microns, > >will take care of most of the unwanted particulates. > >That's for do-it-yourselfers. And please don't argue about that, it's >my web page and I put it there. Aleks's tests are great, but they'd >also cut no ice with Volkswagen, nor with the likes of Dick Cheney >and his gang of industry cronies. > >precisely. the sort of biodiesel world i would like to see come of >age would be made up of millions of small biodiesel operations >fuelling people's energy needs. freedom from centralised energy >suppliers is part of this vision. > >when you start advocating stringent, controversial, unclear, and >generally unrequited standards, you start making the end >product more expensive, while at the same time you clear the field >of small players. > >i would rather promote small players, the 'do-it-yourselfers' you >mention. they are the ones who will make bio happen. they need to. > >my plants are proof of this. they are sized for farmers, and small >truck companies, or fishing fleets. they are entry level, >affordable, reliable, efficient, and expandable. and if you feed >them right, they deliver the best biodiesel. no gc, no nir, not >even ricardo engines, are required !!! > >telling people they can't make decent biodiesel unless they have a >hefty investment in lab equipment is not going to promote grass >roots biodiesel. it will just play into the hands of the big >operators. > >personally, i find alek's approach to be user-friendly. a true go/no >go test. do we really need more than this ? and the same could be >said for pH, and density. all go/no go tests. >no gc, or nir. and no lab, except for a densimeter. > > >but then, if what some people want are standards that only they can > >meet, they should say so up front, and not hide behind diddly lab > >language. > >That's a bit of a thing to imply. What exactly are you saying? Maybe >it's you who should say so upfront. > >diddle (according to webster's): to waste (time) in trifling. all >this gc/nir/non-standard postings are, to me, just diddly lab talk. > >let's make bio, and use it. if it passes alek's scrutiny, and the pH >/ density are about right, it'll work fine for you. stay away from >neat bio until you work out all the cleansing mess, and maybe until >you pull an injector to chk for coking. after that just floor it... > >the proof of the pudding is in the eating. there's more to fear from >the tax scene, methinks, than from the lab scene. > >to each his own. to me, biodiesel = power to the people !!! > >be happy, have some mead. cheers, dick. > ><snip> and smart start with the same consonant. this is a public >service message. > >Biofuels at Journey to Forever ><http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>http://journeytoforever.org >/biofuel.html >Biofuel at WebConX ><http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm>http://www.webconx.c >om/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Your use of Yahoo! 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