Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method

[Joe Street]

Well time for a new thread I guess cause we are a long way off topic.  I think you are right Zeke it's hard not to draw certain conclusions about the people who put these monsters in office.  The problem is it's like going shopping.  You think you have choice but then you find out your money goes to the same people at the top regardless of the choices you thought you made.  The real problem is that the american lifestyle is not negotiable.  How many here would willingly give up a bunch of affluence and convenience so that things might be a little more even in the world? Most of them are too busy trying to catch the carrot on a stick. Even when the government gives aid don't the farmers and shipping companies expect to be paid handsomley in the deal?  So what really is the will of it's people that the government should reflect?  Or is it really already doing that but in a way that upsets people but is really the only way left to maintain it? The oil is necessary to maintain the american lifestyle.  Control of world economy is ideal to this plan even if it means doing dirty things that aren't right.  People are told they have democracy and they believe it but as you said voting once every four years is hardly democratic.  Representative governance works for the rich and hopefully they can take everyone along for the ride (because they need them).  Boy they must have some real belly laughs in private when they think about the common man and the illusion of freedom and democracy. I wonder what things would look like if we had a real democratic system.  If every important decision was put to a vote, sure it would slow things down but hell a lot of people I talk to seem to think things are 'progressing' -and I hate to use that term, too quickly anyways. Surely electronic voting could make a system of national (and god forbid should I be so bold as to suggest....international) referendum possible.  I know that only a tiny fraction of the world is on the web in terms of it's population but that does not mean that people could not have acces to a voting terminal. That must be a very scary thought. Joe Zeke Yewdall wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the rest of the world understands that all americans don't support GW and his policies though... After all, we claim to be a democracy, so therefore, shouldn't the government by nature reflect the will of it's people. In reality, only my congressional representative actualy represents me, but neither of my senators does, nor my president or vice president. I actually voted, but I effectively have almost no vote in our government. Our system is set up for rule by a very narrow majority with no effective minority voice. But if you listen to our rhetoric abroad, it's easy to forget this. Zeke On 10/26/05, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one." Yes, It looks that way, doesn't it? So, I will explain. Usually, I try not to generalize because it leaves out a lot of information and can be manipulated to align itself with a particular agenda. However, on those occasions when I say "Americans" (my apologies to Canadians and others living on this hemisphere) or US citizens in general, I'm pointing toward a trend. The references I give below, are what I use to at least partly back up my position on those trends. Now, although the argument I give is my own, I find others who agree (some of them are my neighbors). "...I went to war for this country and would do it over, for the right reasons..." The fact that there are soldiers who are duty bound and fighting honorably in a war is not the reason for the arrival of one to three hundred thousand protesters in Washington DC on September 24th. It is the horribly convoluted reason for war which is so disturbing. "All I can do is try in my own way to change things for the better." The US as a whole is showing symptoms of fascism. If I, as you say, "group all Americans as one", please prove me wrong and resist the simple perception of our culture which hides our dark little secrets and makes hypocrites out of our government each time they go to preach democracy to another sovereign nation. Our government needs to "play nice with others" and work toward being a participant in a World community instead of further construction of it's empire. Mike Derick Giorchino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You get not too much of an argument from me but. It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one. I also have more than one citizenship. But I went to war for this country and would do it over, for the right reasons, when I came to America many years ago it was the envy of the world. And I feel it still would be. If not for the government and corporate B.S. It disgusts me, but I don't include myself as part of that. All I can do is try in my own way to change things for the better. If not for me but maybe my kids and grand kids. Not that I think it will ever be as it was. But surly it could stand just a tad of improvement. ________________________________ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Michael Redler Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:35 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith! OK, you have my attention. Derick wrote: "Not all Americans are lazy stupid or helpless." As an American, I'd like to think that this is true. In fact, I don't think that Americans are more lazy than any other country or culture. Despite being the most obese country in the world, we find ourselves in the workplace at least as many hours as any other country in the world. Joe wrote: "This explains the typical american arrogance that drips from his rhetoric and which irritates you so well." There are expectations by Americans that other countries and cultures recognize us as somehow superior. If anyone doubts this, here is a little experiment: Take comments so commonly heard in political speeches as well as at backyard barbecues (i.e. "We are the greatest country in the world") and apply it to Germany (for example). In fact, when an American president (especially our current president) makes a speech and it's translated into German and "The United States" is replaced with "Germany", I would argue that many Americans would be shocked that ANY head of state would make such a speech. This is the American double standard which I like to call a kind of pseudo-mutuality since there are still a few countries who are politically and culturally aligned with this image. There is something terribly wrong with our culture and it's just outside the view of most citizens. Calling Americans "lazy" though, is inaccurate and minimizes our long list of troubles. This is what I mean by "list". You try to connect the dots. 1.) "We" have more homicides in our major cities than casualties in war (irrespective of the circumstances in that war). 2.) "We" have a bizarre view of leadership and fairness by virtue of the fact that the president (irrespective of which president) is pledged allegiance even when he (not "she" -yet) takes action which adversely effects the majority of citizens. At the same time, Americans are known for supporting the "underdog" and down trodden - almost as if to perpetuate and preserve this demographic. 3.) "We" struggle to have a standard of K-12 education that matches that of other developed countries while placing huge emphasis on "faith" and mixed interpretations of morality. 4.) Half of the citizens in the United States do not support a document which prevented dictatorships and provided the means for citizens to prosper for the last two and a half centuries. At the same time, the same proportion of citizens don't show up to vote for (arguably) the most powerful political position in the free world. http://www.radessays.com/viewpaper.php?nats=MTAxMToyOjE&request=38800 http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a397df8d00620.htm 5.) Despite being a republic, the US government has taken it upon itself to preach democracy to other countries - countries with better representation of their citizens through coalition governments, better voter turnout and more opportunities for referendums. 6.) We have a so called "free press" which either hides or glorifies the last five points according to a political agenda, making Americans believe that journalism here is as comprehensive as that in other developed countries. ...and the list goes on. One last note: I have a dual citizenship which allows me to permanently move out of the country. However, my "other list" of things that I love about my country (having nothing to do with government or politics) keeps me here. I prefer to stay and be one of many voices of dissent. Mike Other References: http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/atheism9.htm http://gozips.uakron.edu/~david27/flm/chap9.htm http://www.accd.edu/pac/humaniti/colby/L19.htm _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/