I saw a documentary last year on acupuncture. I saw a guy flat on his back in the OR with his lower abdomen wide open. He was talking to the surgical team as they worked on him. I myself have had acupuncture for a several different problems. One was where I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my knees while doing deep knee bends (don't try this) with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only hobble around. The doc gave me pain pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing my armpits. After a couple days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested acupuncture. When I saw the size of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in that first needle in the knee I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with the other knee. He stuck some more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled the needles out. I walked out of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days later the pain came back, as he said it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better than crutches and pain pills which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. Acupuncture did give permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that success depends on the skill of the practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but are precisely placed on meridians and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are targeted depending on the problem. These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized electronic equipment. They really exist. How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through highly tuned perceptual powers. Peace, D. Mindock
----- Original Message ----- From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Joe Street wrote: > Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: > > http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/00000016/00000004/art01145 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked with needles. "Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation... Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported distributed pain neuromatrix... what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, consistent with the scientific method. > > I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my > point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got > to be better. > I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lot....none of > them are terrorists that I know of....lol) that lots of surgical > procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China. > > Joe > > bob allen wrote: >> Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture? sure >> there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is >> not the discussion here. You made a claim that major operations are >> done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally doubt it >> but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you >> or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I found, >> >> http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34 >> >> you show me what you have. >> >> >> Joe Street wrote: >> >>> Hey Bob; >>> >>> Ever been under general anaesthesia? >>> >> >> yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a "game keepers thumb" >> >> >> Remember how you felt when you >> >>> came around? >>> >> >> groggy >> >> >> Did you puke? >> no >> >> Like the worst hangover you ever had? >> >> not at all >> Now >> >>> you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound isn't gonna be >>> easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death >>> for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I really have >>> to go get references for this? >>> >> >> you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific >> evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how >> it works. >> >> >> It's a waste of time for something so >> >>> obvious. I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery room >>> last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL >>> >> >> this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of acupuncture as >> a general anesthetic for major surgery. Do you have a reference or two >> to support your claim? >> >> >> >>> Joe >>> >>> bob allen wrote: >>> >>>> Joe Street wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Bob; >>>>> >>> snip >>> >>>>> explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without >>>>> anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with >>>>> anaesthetic. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim non-testimonial >>>> please. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Biofuel mailing list >>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>> >>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>> >>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>> messages): >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuel mailing list >> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >> messages): >> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. 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