could it be that acupuncture is just a very powerful application of the placebo effect?
D. Mindock wrote: > I saw a documentary last year on acupuncture. I saw a guy flat on his back > in the OR > with his lower abdomen wide open. He was talking to the surgical team as > they worked > on him. I myself have had acupuncture for a several different problems. One > was where > I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my knees while > doing deep knee bends (don't try this) > with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only hobble around. > The doc gave me pain > pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing my armpits. > After a couple > days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested acupuncture. When I > saw the size > of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in that first > needle in the knee > I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with the other knee. > He stuck some > more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled the needles > out. I walked out > of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days later the pain > came back, as he said > it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better than crutches > and pain pills > which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. Acupuncture did > give > permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that success depends > on the skill of the > practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but are precisely > placed on meridians > and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are targeted depending > on the problem. > These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized > electronic equipment. They really exist. > How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through highly tuned > perceptual powers. > Peace, D. Mindock > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof > > > Joe Street wrote: >> Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: >> >> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/00000016/00000004/art01145 > > much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery > is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a > method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked > with needles. > > "Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain > have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary > findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the > pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation... > > Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point > Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or > minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject > analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported > distributed pain neuromatrix... > > > what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the > treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. > > > > You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have > you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you > know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far > have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not > trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, > consistent with the scientific method. > > > > >> I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my >> point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got >> to be better. >> I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lot....none of >> them are terrorists that I know of....lol) that lots of surgical >> procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China. >> >> Joe >> >> bob allen wrote: >>> Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture? sure >>> there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is >>> not the discussion here. You made a claim that major operations are >>> done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally doubt it >>> but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you >>> or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I found, >>> >>> http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34 >>> >>> you show me what you have. >>> >>> >>> Joe Street wrote: >>> >>>> Hey Bob; >>>> >>>> Ever been under general anaesthesia? >>>> >>> yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a "game keepers thumb" >>> >>> >>> Remember how you felt when you >>> >>>> came around? >>>> >>> groggy >>> >>> >>> Did you puke? >>> no >>> >>> Like the worst hangover you ever had? >>> >>> not at all >>> Now >>> >>>> you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound isn't gonna be >>>> easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death >>>> for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I really have >>>> to go get references for this? >>>> >>> you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific >>> evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how >>> it works. >>> >>> >>> It's a waste of time for something so >>> >>>> obvious. I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery room >>>> last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL >>>> >>> this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of acupuncture as >>> a general anesthetic for major surgery. Do you have a reference or two >>> to support your claim? >>> >>> >>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> bob allen wrote: >>>> >>>>> Joe Street wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Bob; >>>>>> >>>> snip >>>> >>>>>> explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without >>>>>> anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with >>>>>> anaesthetic. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim non-testimonial >>>>> please. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Biofuel mailing list >>>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>>> >>>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>>> >>>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>>> messages): >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Biofuel mailing list >>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>> >>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>> >>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>> messages): >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>> >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuel mailing list >> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >> messages): >> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > -- Bob Allen http://www.ozarker.org/bob --------------------------------------------- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves. Richard Feynman _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
