For the same reason your insurance will pay for 300,000.00 heart transplant but won't pay for 100.00 course on how to change your life so you won't need the transplant.
I am still left with a concern: if acupuncture really can be used in place of anesthesia, why isn't its use more widespread, particularly in western, or at least (US)for profit medicine? Kirk McLoren wrote: > Freud was a principal player in denigrating hypnosis. Freuds teacher, > Charcot, was a brilliant hypnotist. > So follow the money. Who profited by removing hypnosis from > psychiatry? Actually from all medicine. > Who is the pharma money? What else do they own/control. > Who profits from mandatory innoculation of newborns when it is > recognized FACT that newborns cannot form an immune response and rely > on mothers antibodies. Who pushed for formula babies - and now we see > mothers milk is best, 10 IQ points etc as a minimum advantage. > Same folks Bob. Dont place your faith in the manipulations of thieves > and liars. Their track record is unchanged in generations. And there > is plain stupidity too. Look at the crap Lister took because the med > schools taught otherwise. > I liked the quote"Half of what we teach is wrong -we just dont know > which half". > Superior modalities go begging all the time. Thats why you have to > direct your own health care. > Kirk > > */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: > > I am still left with a concern: if acupuncture really can be used in > place of anesthesia, why isn't its use more widespread, particularly > in western, or at least (US)for profit medicine? As far as I am > aware, > malpractice insurance is the highest for anesthesiologists, for the > reasons mention here before- sedating a person is a risky > business. If > you could achieve the same sedation without drugs and therefore side > effects, the practice of medicine should be much cheaper, right? > which > means more profit right? Why don't we hear of more anesthesiologists > using this technique? Or how about dentists. A little girl died in > Chicago, due to negligence I presume, during a dental procedure > conducted under anesthetic. Ever heard of a root canal done with > acupuncture alone? Just curious > > Keith Addison wrote: > >> could it be that acupuncture is just a very powerful > application of the > >> placebo effect? > > > > No, speaking from quite extensive experience of it in East Asia. > But > > then I suppose that's just a testimonial eh? Actually my experience > > of it was two-sided, both personal and investigating and writing > > about it. It's not just mumbo-jumbo, it has a sound scientific > basis > > even though Western (ie allopathic) medicine doesn't see it that > way. > > Acupuncture was previously a part of Western medicine, it was used > > quite extensively in both Holland and Italy and probably > elsewhere in > > Europe, until the onset of Big Pharma (plus unforeseeable > > side-effects). Uh, all those unforeseeable side-effects wouldn't > just > > happen to be a very powerful application of the placebo effect > > either, would they now. > > > actually some may be. The nocebo effect is well known. > > http://skepdic.com/nocebo.html > > > * More than two-thirds of 34 college students developed headaches > when told that a non-existent electrical current passing through > their > heads could produce a headache. > * "Japanese researchers tested 57 high school boys for their > sensitivity to allergens. The boys filled out questionnaires about > past > experiences with plants, including lacquer trees, which can cause > itchy > rashes much as poison oak and poison ivy do. Boys who reported having > severe reactions to the poisonous trees were blindfolded. Researchers > brushed one arm with leaves from a lacquer tree but told the boys > they > were chestnut tree leaves. The scientists stroked the other arm with > chestnut tree leaves but said the foliage came from a lacquer tree. > Within minutes the arm the boys believed to have been exposed to the > poisonous tree began to react, turning red and developing a bumpy, > itchy > rash. In most cases the arm that had contact with the actual > poison did > not react." (Gardiner Morse, "The nocebo effect," Hippocrates, > November > 1999, Hippocrates.com) > * In the Framingham Heart Study, women who believed they are prone > to heart disease were nearly four times as likely to die as women > with > similar risk factors who didn't believe.* (Voelker, Rebecca. "Nocebos > Contribute to a Host of Ills." Journal of the American Medical > Association 275 no. 5 (1996): 345-47. ) [Of course, one might > argue that > the women in both groups had good intuitions. The objective risk > factors > may have been the same, but subjectively the women knew their bodies > better than the objective tests could reveal.] > * C.K. Meador claimed that people who believe in voodoo may > actually get sick and die because of their belief ("Hex Death: Voodoo > Magic or Persuasion?" Southern Medical Journal 85, no. 3 (1992): > 244-47). > * "In one experiment, asthmatic patients breathed in a vapor that > researchers told them was a chemical irritant or allergen. Nearly > half > of the patients experienced breathing problems, with a dozen > developing > full-blown attacks. They were “treated” with a substance they > believed > to be a bronchodilating medicine, and recovered immediately. In > actuality, both the “irritant” and the “medicine” were a nebulized > saltwater solution."* > > Arthur Barsky, a psychiatrist at Boston's Brigham and Women's > Hospital, > found in a recent review of the nocebo literature that patient > expectation of adverse effects of treatment or of possible harmful > side-effects of a drug, played a significant role in the outcome of > treatment (Barsky et al. 2002). > > Since patients' beliefs and fears may be generated by just about > anything they come in contact with, it may well be that many > things that > are unattended to by many if not most physicians, such as the > color of > the pills they give, the type of uniform they wear, the words they > use > to give the patient information, the kind of room they place a > patient > in for recovery, etc., may be imbued with rich meaning for the > patient > and have profound effects for good or for ill on their > > > > > > Best > > > > Keith > > > > > >> D. Mindock wrote: > >>> I saw a documentary last year on acupuncture. I saw a guy flat > on his back > >>> in the OR > >>> with his lower abdomen wide open. He was talking to the > surgical team as > >>> they worked > >>> on him. I myself have had acupuncture for a several different > >> problems. One > >>> was where > >>> I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my > knees while > >>> doing deep knee bends (don't try this) > >>> with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only > >> hobble around. > >>> The doc gave me pain > >>> pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing > my armpits. > >>> After a couple > >>> days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested > acupuncture. When I > >>> saw the size > >>> of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in > >> that first > >>> needle in the knee > >>> I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with > the other knee. > >>> He stuck some > >>> more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled > the needles > >>> out. I walked out > >>> of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days > later the pain > >>> came back, as he said > >>> it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better > than crutches > >>> and pain pills > >>> which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. > Acupuncture did > >>> give > >>> permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that > >> success depends > >>> on the skill of the > >>> practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but > are precisely > >>> placed on meridians > >>> and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are > >> targeted depending > >>> on the problem. > >>> These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized > >>> electronic equipment. They really exist. > >>> How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through > highly tuned > >>> perceptual powers. > >>> Peace, D. Mindock > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "bob allen" > >>> To: > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof > >>> > >>> > >>> Joe Street wrote: > >>>> Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: > >>>> > >>>> > >> > http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/00000016/00000004/art > > >> 01145 > >>> much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that > major surgery > >>> is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract > describes a > >>> method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to > being poked > >>> with needles. > >>> > >>> "Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in > human brain > >>> have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary > >>> findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the > >>> pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupointñbrain > correlation... > >>> > >>> Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point > >>> Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock > EA or > >>> minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. > Multisubject > >>> analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the > reported > >>> distributed pain neuromatrix... > >>> > >>> > >>> what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the > >>> treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my > turn: have > >>> you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or > do you > >>> know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim > and so far > >>> have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. > I am not > >>> trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of > evidence, > >>> consistent with the scientific method. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy > issue, but my > >>>> point was that if surgery can be performed without > anaesthetic it's got > >>>> to be better. > >>>> I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a > lot....none of > >>>> them are terrorists that I know of....lol) that lots of surgical > >>>> procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China. > >>>> > >>>> Joe > >>>> > >>>> bob allen wrote: > >>>>> Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of > acupuncture? sure > >>>>> there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, > but that is > >>>>> not the discussion here. You made a claim that major > operations are > >>>>> done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally > doubt it > >>>>> but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just > because you > >>>>> or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I > found, > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34 > >>>>> > >>>>> you show me what you have. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Joe Street wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hey Bob; > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Ever been under general anaesthesia? > >>>>>> > >>>>> yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a "game keepers thumb" > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Remember how you felt when you > >>>>> > >>>>>> came around? > >>>>>> > >>>>> groggy > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Did you puke? > >>>>> no > >>>>> > >>>>> Like the worst hangover you ever had? > >>>>> > >>>>> not at all > >>>>> Now > >>>>> > >>>>>> you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound > isn't gonna be > >>>>>> easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the > brink of death > >>>>>> for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I > really have > >>>>>> to go get references for this? > >>>>>> > >>>>> you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little > scientific > >>>>> evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the > explanation of how > >>>>> it works. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> It's a waste of time for something so > >>>>> > >>>>>> obvious. I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the > recovery room > >>>>>> last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL > >>>>>> > >>>>> this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of > acupuncture as > >>>>> a general anesthetic for major surgery. Do you have a > reference or two > >>>>> to support your claim? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Joe > >>>>>> > >>>>>> bob allen wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Joe Street wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi Bob; > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> snip > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations > without > >>>>>>>> anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning > the body with > >>>>>>>> anaesthetic. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim > non-testimonial > >>>>>>> please. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Biofuel mailing list > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives > (50,000 messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > -- > Bob Allen > http://www.ozarker.org/bob > --------------------------------------------- > Science is what we have learned about how to > keep from fooling ourselves. Richard Feynman > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > All-new Yahoo! 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