Hi Tom;
Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup
last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back (
which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a 0000
on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask
and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the
flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the
barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what
happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them
as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least
I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm
lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart
crossed, hoping to find out.....
Tirah
Joe
Thomas Kelly wrote:
Hi Joe,
I didn't follow you when you wrote:
"I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do
it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure
and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a
high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do
something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating
pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it
from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course
the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well."
I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in
castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then
proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil.
This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or
a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to
distill the alcohol out.
What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a
selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil
floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act
to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid)
to the top layer (vapor).
Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the
castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial
pressure would remain low -------> a continuous stream from the
liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out.
Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water
and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from "pushing"
through the oil layer into the vapor layer?
Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water
to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like
this occur in living cells).
Maybe I have it all wrong.
You do have me thinking. The last time that happened ..
"harmonic mixing" ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw.
Today I do some grunt work ..... nothing dangerous.
Best to you .... don't hesitate to correct me if I have it
all wrong.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Joe Street <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
*Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Well Tom;
Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we
discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a
suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire
extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in
the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing
with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet
but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the
seives......a risk I guess.
I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to
do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90%
pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If
there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top
and you could do something like normal distillation through the
oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer
and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done
any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl
eventually as well.
soon
Joe
Thomas Kelly wrote:
Joe,
I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol.
I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I
think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer
keg ..... problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and
empty it.
I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the
still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for
regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy
efficient and would not damage the zeolite.
How do we heat the trap?
I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects
.... some have stalled due to loss of interest .... I've got
to rally.
"Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really
want to get off the meth....;)"
Ditto
Maybe this little methanol price "crisis" will serve as a
wake-up call ...
Good to hear from you
Hope you're on the mend
Tom
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Joe Street <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
*Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol
Hi Tom;
I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt
ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as
I understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl
esters production. Don't forget about the castor oil method
for drying alcohol. I got some castor oil to experiment with
but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and
haven't done much. Time to get back to it! We should work
together. I really want to get off the meth....;)
Joe
Thomas Kelly wrote:
Kurt,
Thanks for the info.
Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home.
People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons
including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise
and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply
could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link
between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I
wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source.
Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol
production.
Thanks again,
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kurt Nolte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol
It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural
gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a
good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process.
-Kurt
Thomas Kelly wrote:
It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood.
Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas?
Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol
produced from it renewable and carbon neutral.
Tom
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