Go gettem Joe! we all wait a shivers for your results!
>From: Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) >Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:09:05 -0500 > >Hi Tom; > >Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last >night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a >difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a 0000 on the dryness >scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some >castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at >the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll >heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the >alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way >to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency >ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! >Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out..... > >Tirah >Joe > >Thomas Kelly wrote: > >>Hi Joe, >> I didn't follow you when you wrote: >>"I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? >>I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think >>the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage >>of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal >>distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of >>the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't >>done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl >>eventually as well." >> I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor >>oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to >>distill the alcohol from the castor oil. >> This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a >>lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill >>the alcohol out. >> What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a >>selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil >>floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to >>select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the >>top layer (vapor). >>Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor >>oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would >>remain low -------> a continuous stream from the liquid through the >>castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force >>(hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to >>prevent water vapor from "pushing" through the oil layer into the vapor >>layer? >> Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to >>travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this >>occur in living cells). >> Maybe I have it all wrong. >> You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. "harmonic >>mixing" ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some >>grunt work ..... nothing dangerous. >> Best to you .... don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all >>wrong. >> Tom >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Joe Street <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >> *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) >> >> Well Tom; >> Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we >> discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a >> suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire >> extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in >> the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing >> with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet >> but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the >> seives......a risk I guess. >> I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to >> do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% >> pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If >> there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top >> and you could do something like normal distillation through the >> oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer >> and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done >> any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl >> eventually as well. >> >> soon >> Joe >> >> Thomas Kelly wrote: >> >>> Joe, >>> I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. >>> I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I >>> think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer >>> keg ..... problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and >>> empty it. >>> I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between >>>the >>> still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for >>> regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy >>> efficient and would not damage the zeolite. >>> How do we heat the trap? I'm at the >>>beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects .... some have >>>stalled due to loss of interest .... I've got >>> to rally. >>> "Time to get back to it! We should work together. I >>>really >>> want to get off the meth....;)" >>> Ditto Maybe this little methanol price "crisis" >>>will serve as a >>> wake-up call ... Good to hear from you >>> Hope you're on the mend >>> Tom >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* Joe Street <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>> *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol >>> >>> Hi Tom; >>> >>> I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt >>> ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as >>> I understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl >>> esters production. Don't forget about the castor oil method >>> for drying alcohol. I got some castor oil to experiment with >>> but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and >>> haven't done much. Time to get back to it! We should work >>> together. I really want to get off the meth....;) >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> Thomas Kelly wrote: >>> >>>>Kurt, >>>> Thanks for the info. >>>> Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home. >>>> People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons >>>>including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a >>>>vise and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol >>>>supply could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main >>>>link between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon >>>>neutrality. I wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon >>>>neutral source. >>>> Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at >>>>ethanol production. >>>> Thanks again, >>>> Tom >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Kurt Nolte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>>>Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from >>>>>natural >>>>>gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a >>>>>good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the >>>>>process. >>>>> >>>>>-Kurt >>>>> >>>>>Thomas Kelly wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas? >>>>>> Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol >>>>>>produced from it renewable and carbon neutral. >>>>>> Tom >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Biofuel mailing list >>>>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>>>>> >>>>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>>>>> >>>>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>>>>>messages): >>>>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Biofuel mailing list >>>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>>>> >>>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>>>> >>>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>>>>messages): >>>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Biofuel mailing list >>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>>> >>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>>> >>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>>>messages): >>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Biofuel mailing list >>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>> >>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>> >>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>> >>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives >>> (50,000 messages): >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Biofuel mailing list >>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>> >>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>> >>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>>messages): >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>> >>> >>> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> Biofuel mailing list >> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >> messages): >> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Biofuel mailing list >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>messages): >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
