Keith I did clarify, a few paragraphs later: "Again, the idea of a creature doing something that works because it was created with Divine wisdom is different to the idea of an intelligent being. I am not preferring one to the other; I am insisting on the distinction in the interest of retaining useful concepts to think with. As it happens I think the former is probably far more important in the scheme of things ..."
Likewise if I question your subsequent statement, "We are all one," it would not be the underlying attitude but the purely rational implication to which I might object. That is to say, I would not be sneering but nit-picking, if I were to suggest that the idea that we each have a proper place in the scheme of things does not necessarily imply unity. While the concept of unity does underline the fact that we have one earth with no replacement off-the-shelf, it reinforces the current tendency to obscure boundaries, which is not helpful to our cause. In fact, the consequent idea of interchangeability is very much part of the problem! Similarly the way an imposed collectivism always results in tyranny is often countered by proposing individualism, which fails for many reasons - not least because individuality in a void is palpably meaningless. The alternative is personalism: the difference is that the concept of personhood implies a condition of relatedness that sharpens and does not obscure that personhood. Desmond Tutu - and others before him "A person is a person through other people." We tend to emphasize the "through other people" and forget that the upshot of the idea is that the person is thereby emphatically a person, and not that the person is thereby somehow no longer a person. I do not think the idea of a unity of nature, nor the idea that we are ourselves included in it, is strange or missing or new or unusual, in the so-called West or anywhere else. It is an established part of our broad received culture. Again, popular opinion being contrary to popular opinion? I do not even know if the knack that the modern world has to project its most conventional tenets in contrast to a largely fictitious construct of conservatism is unique and unprecedented, or whether it has occurred in other ages and places. Then the modern world uniquely contains sugar granules in little disposable paper sachets with amazing philosophical insights printed on them. Are those insights the philosophical content of our cultural sphere, or contrary to the philosophical content of our cultural sphere? or strangely both? or neither? Is Marx at fault (as he so often is) with, "The ruling ideas are the ideas of the ruling classes", when the ruling ideas seem to be those ideas that seem to refute the ideas of an implied ruling class which may or may not actually exist, and certainly does not rule. For "contrary to popular belief" is understood on all of those sugar sachets. We have not forgotten this basic law of life (again the terminology may be analyzed, even if I fully support the sentiment). We have most of us been at least vaguely aware of it even while finding ourselves very nearly - but not quite - powerlessly watching a few powerful agents flagrantly disregarding it. Surely our current cause is not a new one? It goes back at least to Blake's "satanic mills". We've known all along. But the 18th-century English were swept along just as we are being swept along now. That is not the end of it; there are solutions, but that is another discussion. Best regards Dawie ________________________________ From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Mon, 23 May, 2011 1:11:17 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Human Intelligence and the Environment Hello Dawie >Indeed, I haven't kept chickens! I bow to your better experience. > >My comment was, however, by way of illustration rather than >evidence. As such it >was really the least important part of my post. But the illustration was not correct. We are all one. No creature is better or worse than another. That's not unimportant, it's crucial. The biosphere itself is now under threat. To what extent is that due to our failure to heed this basic law of life on earth? >It is interesting that it was >the only bit that drew comment. I'm sorry if it seems I sidetracked the discussion, but even though there's not yet been any further comment, I'm sure it's inspired thought and reflection. Here's your original message, in full: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg75964.html All best Keith >Regards > >Dawie Coetzee > > >________________________________ >From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >Sent: Sat, 21 May, 2011 22:52:06 >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Human Intelligence and the Environment > >Hi Dawie > >Very interesting, food for thought, thankyou. > >I don't agree with this though: > >>Our relationship to those non-human >>beings with which we have a long-standing symbiosis rests on may factors, not >>least of which is that our canine and feline companions have the knack of >>looking at the bit where our eyes are when trying to communicate >>with us. They >>literally face us, as we face one another when speaking to one >>another; and that >>makes them intelligible to us. Birds, even very bright ones, don't do that, >>because their use of vision is different. Hence our relationship to them is >>slightly different - however that does not preclude meaningful >>engagement with >>various sorts of birds. > >Clearly you haven't kept chickens, A newly hatched chick will look >you in the eye when it emerges from the egg. It's unmistakeable. So >too will its mum, and the same applies to ducks and geese, and indeed >to all birds. Not only birds - a lizard will look you in the eye too. > >Ethological studies have advanced quite a lot in the last decade or >so. It emerges for instance that birds are smarter than dogs, they're >about as smart as monkeys. > >That's what the science says, though maybe my attitude to it helps >(or doesn't help, whichever). I had to come off the idea quite a long >time ago that I'm any smarter than they are, if as smart. I don't >think I've ever seen a dumb animal, apart from some people's pets >(rendered dumb). They all seem to go about their daily business on >the face of this fair planet with at least as much good sense as I >can muster going about mine. _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20110523/f649a52e/attachment.html _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
