On Mon, 2008-03-10 at 11:47 +1030, Darrin Smith wrote: > OK, to take this a step further I'll start the ball rolling in Adelaide: > (As we get a consensus I'll write a Adelaide/South Australia Wiki page > to reflect the decisions, I'm happy to do that)
To date, I've been following the guidelines on the Australian Roads Tagging wiki page, specifically those for "Urban Areas" (since everything I've done on OSM so far has been urban). > 1) Trunk Roads in City > > I propose that all "A" routes in Adelaide and only "A" Routes are > labelled trunk. I don't think this makes sense. Here's why: Firstly, I'll get the two red herrings out of the way: if I recall correctly, the Gawler Bypass is signposted as A20, but it's actually a motorway. Similarly, the Port River Expressway signposted as A9 (and A13 for the part that used to be called the South Rd-Salisbury Hwy Connector Road), but also is a motorway. But I don't really think you intended the trunk definition to include those two. Leaving those two aside, trunk routes (at least in urban areas) imply the big, heavily trafficed, wide, long, most significant roads within the greater metropolitan area. I think everyone will agree that for Adelaide that includes: * The metro portion of Main North Road * The metro portion of Main South Road/South Road * The A21 city bypass route (with all its myriad of names) * Port Road * Anzac Highway as far as the coner of Tapleys Hill/Brighton Roads * Glen Osmond Road from the cnr of Greenhill Road to the Freeway * The metro portion of Victor Harbour Road (at least as far as Aldinga Road, beyond that it's no longer within the "urban" problem domain :) * The portion of Fullarton Road that has an A reference * Portrush Road/Lower Portrush Road/Hampstead Road * North East Road * Grand Junction Road * Port Wakefield Road Most of us will probably agree that it also includes: * Cross Road (A3) * Salisbury Highway/John Rice Avenue I'm 50/50 on Payneham Road/Lower North East Road -- it's a road of importance (definitely at least primary), but not the main trunk route in the area (that would be North East Road). Likewise, with the A15 (Tapleys Hill Road/Brighton Rd/Lonsdale Rd/etc. etc.). Again, it's definitely a road of importance (at least primary), but particularly at the Southern end, I'd say not the main trunk route in the area (that would be Main South Road). For example, if you look at the area South of Seaford Road, Main South Road is currently tagged as primary, whereas Commercial Road (A15) is tagged as trunk, despite Main South Road being a much longer & wider road, with higher speed limits, greater traffic, more link-style access roads, less direct intersections, better signage and servicing more destinations. Granted, Main South Road doesn't seem to have an A designation past the corner of Victor Harbour Road, but it still seems to be more of a trunk road than Commercial Road is (despite Commercial Road's A designation). On the other hand, I can see why the Northern end of the A15 (Tapleys Hill Road) could be considered a trunk route. > I can understand some hesitation from people with respect to the A22, > parts of the A16 because they are low quality roads, but if we're going I think the A16 is tagged correctly at present (trunk from the corner of Port Road to the corner of North East Road, then primary beyond that. UPDATE: Just checked the map. I didn't realise that the A16 continued up the LeFevre Peninsula. That part definitely should not be trunk (probably okay left as primary). The A22 on the other hand, hardly seems to be a trunk route, with the area being serviced by the much more major routes of A13 (South Road), A1 (Main North Road) and A16 (Grand Junction Road). > to tag to a reference pattern they need to fit. I think that's the problem. The reference indicators need to be on the map, so people can use the MABC signs as navigational aids, but I don't think they should define the highway= tag -- at least, not in metro Adelaide, and probably not in other metro areas either. There are dozens of examples of where this would inappropriate, including the above. But also think about the A14: Whilst I personally believe Marion Road is correctly tagged as primary, I can see how some might consider it trunk; but Holbrooks Road & East Avenue (also part of A14) -- surely not. > 2) Definition of rural vs city area > > I propose that the area bounded by lines joining Two Wells, Gawler, > Birdwood, Mount Barker, Willunga, Aldinga and the Coast line are > defined as "City" area, and that areas outside these are considered > "Rural" (We can define other "city" areas around Mount > Gambier/Whyalla/Whatever if people have definitions?). I think the > current Rural definitions as provided on the Wiki are pretty close to > spot on for these areas. I agree wholeheartedly with your proposed Northern, Southern and coastal borders. I agree in principle with your proposed Eastern border. However, that's not how most of the western half of the hills have been tagged. I'd like to hear input from Kim (adhoc) before committing on this, since he has done most of the mapping in that area and probably knows it better than either of us. In particular, I'd suspect that whilst Mount Barker and Willunga should probably both be classed as metro areas, that might not be appropriate for the (predominantly country) roads that connect them to each other. > 3) Primary Roads in City: > > There are about 5 "B" Roads inside the definition of the city area, > otherwise there's a whole bunch of roads in the city itself which > server the cross-city tasks the road definition suggests these should > be. However I think there are currently way too many roads in Adelaide > marked as primary which AREN'T serving significant cross-suburb > purposes (Prospect Road is one that immediately comes to mind). I would I've never seen a B road signposted in metro Adelaide (although there are plenty outside of the metro area) -- where are they? I agree with you though, that there seem to be too many roads tagged as primary in Adelaide at present. Many of these should probably be tagged as secondary - some perhaps even tertiary - although this will exacerbate our problem with secondary and tertiary _links :) But more importantly, again I don't think the MABC classification system should be used to determine the value of the highway= tag in metro Adelaide (see above) - I'm much more comfortable with the current "Urban areas" scheme on the Australian Road Tagging wiki page, although it may need some tweaking to be made a little clearer. > like to suggest we the mappers of Adelaide draw up a list of "Primary" > roads which are the only ones that should be marked primary. I've included above my first draft of what such a list would look like for trunk roads. Here's a start for the primary roads: * Sir Donald Bradman Drive/Burbridge Road (A6) * Henley Beach Road/Bakewell Underpass/Glover Avenue * Grange Road (the one that goes to Grange) * Torrens Road until the corner of Addison Road * Marion Road (part of A14) * A15 (Tapleys Hill Rd/Brighton Rd/Lonsdale Rd/etc. etc.) * A22 (Churchill Rd/Cavan Rd) * Prospect Road (although the bit that's been turned into a circus should probably be tertiary, as you've alluded to above) * Regency Road * All those roads currently marked as primary within the CBD and North Adelaide (postcode areas 5000 & 5006) * Payneham Road/Lower North East Road * Those parts of Fullarton Road not marked as trunk * Richmond Road between South Road and Anzac Hwy (secondary west of South Rd; tertiary west of Marion Rd) * Greenhill Road east of Fullarton Rd (western part should be trunk) * Magill Road * Glynburn Road * Walkleys Road/Sudholz Road/Darley Road * Grand Junction Road east of North East Rd * Sturt Road * Flaxmill/Wheatsheaf Roads * Beach Road (Noarlunga) between A15 and A13 * Seaford Road (between A15 and A13) * Aldinga Road * Victoria Road (LeFevre peninsula) * Birdge Road (Pooraka) * Waterloo Corner Road (Salisbury) * Kings Road (Salisbury) * Phillip Hwy (Elizabeth) * Old Mt Barker Rd/Old Princes Hwy (hills) * Goodwood Road/Fiveash Drive/Ayliffes Road * Unley Road/Belair Road The list probably needs a whole bunch more entries in the hills and a few more in the Northern suburbs and maybe a couple more in the deep South too -- others who know the local roads better than me can add these. Similarly, I've left out the Golden Grove area altogether since looking at the map it seems to have changed immensely since I was last there (some years ago), so someone else will need to make a start on that area. Note that I have deliberately left out the following (some of which are currently or have previously been tagged as primary) roads, as whilst they are important roads, they are not "cross-city" or "arterial": * West Lakes Boulevard * OG Road * Old Port Road * Military Road * Seaview Road (the one by Henley Beach, not the one in the South) * Diagonal Road (both of them) * Morphett Road (the one by the racecourse) * Oaklands Road/Daws Road/Springbank Road * Seacombe Road * The Parade * Kensington Road * Woodville Road * Nottage Terrace (Medindie) * Osmond Terrace (Norwood) * St Vincent Street/Jervois Bridge/Hart St (Port Adelaide) > 4) Further levels: For later, a few steps at a time :) I think there are far too many roads in even a small city like Adelaide to even consider coming up with a prescriptive list of what can be a secondary or tertiary road -- assuming most of us are mapping from actual surveys and/or local knowledge, I think simple guidelines are more than sufficient. > I'm particularly would like input from those guys mapping lots > of Adelaide with me (jackb, justcameron, adhoc?) since you guys and I > will tread on each others toes if we're not seeing eye-to-eye. Agreed. See above. Regards, Jack. _______________________________________________ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-au
