Hi all,
I have just been reading all of the 'vzw' talk that has been going on. So after holidays now it't time for my reaction. First of all, I think the most important advantage of having an 'official form' is in the contacts. It makes it easyer to go to official instances, press, other organisations, ... if one can speak/write on behalf of an organisation. On the other hand te reverse is true too. If a map-maker (...) thinks his copyright or commercial interests are violated by OSM it makes it more easy for them too to sue, wether they are right or not. But even if they are wrong it may put you in the courtroom. If a map-maker or other important company wants to make life difficult for osm, and they want to play a 'dirty game' it doesn't bother them to loose a few 1000 euro in a courtcase, and they can probably affort loosing it. The purpose of the vwz - maatschappelijk doel - is probably the most important part of the statuten. The vzw can only take actions within the purpose as formulated there, so it is wise to formulate it quite abstract and general. Changing the purpose in the statuten later has to be done within quite strict rules, and can be difficult. For instance if you refer to 'openstreetmap' and OSM would ever change it's name, you run into trouble already. Only the MAXIMUM membership fee has to be in the statuten. So it is wise to put the amount fairly high, even with 30 years future inflation in mind... Unless the vzw wants to perform additional commercial activities (for instance produce printable maps for private companies) the bookkeeping work is quite elemetary - in and out - and there is no VAT obligations. Insurance is something that has changed since I had vzw experience. If my knowledge is right a vzw now has to have insurance for it's collaborators during activities. I think however this is quite the same for a 'feitelijke vereniging'. Conclusion... I am quite convinced that 'some kind of organisational structure' might be nescessary for osm-belgium. I am not convinced that, at current time, it is nescessary to put this organisational structure in a vzw. That would become nescessary once the organisation has -important- own possessions or assets, or could get money from third parties. Note that I am not opposed to a vzw - far from - but at current time I do not see the advantages to a 'feitelijke vereniging'. I think it is more important to have some structure first - have some meetings on a regular basis, including (and most important for) new mappers. Putting all this into a vzw form is then just a formality and can happen 'on the fly'. One doesn't get a good structure just by putting some bylaws into the 'belgisch staatsblad'... Luc / Speedy On Fri, 2009-09-11 at 09:36 +0200, Kristoff Bonne wrote: > Wannes, > > > wannes schreef: > > In a VZW (ASBL) the founders are liable. So founding a VZW/ASBL > > wouldn't change too much if you' concering liability. > > Not true. A vzw is a legal entity in itself; so for actions organised by > the vzw and following the formal structure of the vzw, it is the vzw > which is the entity that is liable. > > However, this does mean that you need to follow the formal rules of a > vzw; e.g. actions to organise an event must have been taken in a formal > meeting of the "bestuursvergadering" and at the end of the year, the > "algemene vergadering" must take over the formal resposability of all > actions taken by the "bestuur" during that last year. > > > Concerning liability, the question of the usefullness of being a vzw > depends a bit on how much you look at "worse case senarios". > Say that you organises a mapping-event and somebody on a scooter has a > traffic-accident causing physical damage or even worse to somebody else. > > It can be that the assurance-company of that person will say "I'm sorry > but you where driving around as part of an organised event, under > supervision of that organising party so not as a "private person"; so > it's the assurance of that organisation that has to pay this". > > The fact that that person is not payed by the organisation and does this > out of his/her free will does not necessairy change that! > > > Or it can be that the assurance-company of that person will have to pay > the victim but will then try to recuperate that cost at the whoever > organised the event. > > > If I remember correctly, there was a case where a computerclub (IIRC in > Knokke or Blankenberge) organised a "open deur" somewhere in a backroom > of a hotel and somebody, wile moving a table- by accident hit the wall > where a pieve of spaster came lose. The hotel then suit the organiser > for the cost or repairing that! > If you are not a formal vzw, it can be that you will be suit "as person" > and that one person of the organisation will have to pay the bill who > then will have to "recuperate" at the other persons of the organisation. > > > > Again, it all depends on your attitude towards "worse case senarios" and > on what exactly you want to do with this group. > But, the way I see it, from the moment you start organising events, > especially with things like mapping-evens where people can get involved > in a traffic-accident- you better make sure that you are well prepared > and -if necessairy- also assured for this. > Not only for you -as organiser- but also for the person who is involved > in the accident. > > > > Anycase, another advantage for being a vzw is for fund-raising. No > organisation or company (say a university or a city-council) will fund > an organisation that does not have a proper "official" structure (one of > the reasons being that -at least- a vzw has a to do a formal bookkeeping > so their is a trace of where the money of the fund is going and not > dissapear in a black-hole or somebody's personal pockets somewhere :-) ). > > > > On the other hand, you do have to be aware that being a vzw does also > include some legal obligations, like at least 2 "official" meetings a > year, bookkeeping, a VAT-declaration, etc. > > > So it's a sword that cuts both ways. > > > > wannes > > Cheerio! Kr. Bonne. > (board-member "multi computer club Brugge v.z.w.") > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-be mailing list > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be _______________________________________________ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
