Hey Joost, My reply wasn't really aimed at you but at the general idea to map things in too much detail like in pseudo osm :
grocery:selling=garlic;onions;condoms > Can we take a step back here? It’s starting to feel like we’re > discussing abandoned railways or something. Glenn, please don’t be the > one to decide who is the community and who is the einzelganger. This is > defined by the community, not by words but by actions. And please do not > tell me to stop doing something I never actually did. We are discussing > an idea, no-one has even touched an editor yet. Good idea. Let's step back. I'm not deciding anything, not judging. Not saying anyone IS an einzelganger nor can't be. It was careless of me to reply to your posting, that was my mistake, I was really talking in general, should have done that on the OP's question. You're taking my advice out of context. I'm trying to convince the majority that an URL is better suited. But in no way I'm TELLING anyone what to do, certainly not you. I'm attacking an idea I believe is not correct. > > Don’t try to be the one to decide what is our core idea and what isn’t. > This is not how OpenStreetMap works: it started as something, then > became something else because mappers. Again, it's an opinion, not a decision. I said OSM is in the core a map, and atleast wikipedia agrees with this: "OpenStreetMap (OSM) is a collaborative project to create a free editable map of the world" > I’m going to stop quoting what you and I said, as we are clearly > misrepresenting each other’s words. You read several things into my > words I never meant – I’m hoping I’m not doing the same. Yup, looking at the fact you think I'm telling you what to do, you are ;-) But no worries. But I was certainly not focussing on just what you said I took into account what everyone says on the thread. I just believe we need to work with URL's and trying to get this across. Setting up a separate external sort of OSM extended database is actually not a bad idea ( Marc's ) and can be used to solve the problem with url's getting obsolete. > * I’m not saying we SHOULD MAP shops in any special way. I am saying > that whenever the point “what you’re talking about shouldn’t be in OSM” > is being a made, I’ve never been quite convinced. There might be reasons > to store some information externally, but as Marc said that’s not > straightforward at all (I wrote a diary entry about it which got a lot > of interesting feedback [1], Ben Abelshausen and I have even worked on a > rather big idea around the subject). Ok, looking forward to seeing this materialise. There is a grey zone of data that is difficult to decide if it is OSM suited, but a lot of stuff is really clear (and documented). > * We’re talking about a general problem in the tagging scheme: often a > thing can be only one thing, while in reality, it is not. Say, a > hotel-restaurant. As Pieter said, solving this by using semicolons is > often discouraged, though it can make sense sometimes [2]. The wiki says > on when not to use: “in general avoid”. Hence Pieter’s quest for an > alternative – exactly as the wiki states. Yea, tagging certainly isn't perfect, this is common problem with organic growth. I agree this is a pain. (perhaps the biggest) > * In the case of shops, we make huge amounts of categories to fit every > shop into something very specific. But reality isn’t that simple. To > solve this problem, there are some cases where it would be useful to > know what the shop sells. Just like the classification of “secondary” > road doesn’t tell me all I need to know – I wan’t to know the lanes, the > width, the maxweight, the road surface. We don’t try and make a > definition of “secondary” that is valid worldwide, because that makes no > sense. But that means that you need additional information to know what > exactly it means, especially as non-local users might use the data. There are quite some tags that exist already defining category's. There is certainly some room for a fresh idea. I thought about it some more and I would support creating types or groups if wel structured. It's the same problem with a 'frietkot' , it's a typical cultural defined thing that is quite hard to tag (so foreigners get what they sell). And even that we can't get right because in the beginning we started using only amenity=fast_food (Americans would raise eyebrows) Right now , a bit more elegant we have cuisine categories: amenity=fast_food cuisine=friture we could do this too: selling:bitterballen=yes friture:frieten=big;medium;small friture:saus=ketchup;mayonaise:tartaar but then I question myself: does that really belong in OSM? I always use the website of 'the owner' when I want trustworthy information. That is why you will see I add as many websites I can find about a shop, I use it to verify address information and opening hours. It comes natural for me. > * Apparently, this is controversial when it comes to products sold in a > shop. Why is it controversial for a shop, but not for fuel stations, > vending machines, recycling containers, beers served at cafés (or is > openbeermap controversial?)? I didn't claim we can't elaborate. You are really reading things I didn't write. So looks like this is a a non issue now for both. I mapped many shops in detail, looked up the website, addressed the building, marked the entrances. I like micro mapping. So if you want to see my actions, check http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/fOk the level of detail: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3296861381 > * We’re talking about a concrete project with real community building > potential which would need a grand total of seven types of products. I'm going to take more time reading all your links, but thanks already. I cut this big block because it was too interesting to immediately react without study. > If the plan would be to import a dataset of all Belgian shops with all > their products, I would totally be against. If someone says “hey, what’s > the best way to try this?”, then I will do my very best to think along. Yea, but I so much agree with you on this. I believe shops should all come from OSM. I believe we could create specific sites like 'openingsuren' for example driven by OSM data. I've been working for a long time on an idea around shops in my spare time. > > Marc in fact automatically corrected all of those URLs and wrote a nice > diary post about it. Just an example of how URLs are not the most stable > of things either, nothing more. The point being that “stability” is a > spectrum, and I don’t know how to put a cut-off point of where a > property becomes “too unstable”, except relative to the community. A > hypothetical example: in the desert of Australia road smoothness evolves > quickly. When the truck comes to flatten the dirt, it’s super smooth. > After a few weeks of lorry travel, it’s all washboarded. It would be > absolutely crazy to tray and map this. Now imagine fifty crazy dudes > (and one dudette, for good measure) with sportscars, who are all waiting > for the roads to get freshly levelled. They get the contacts of the guys > doing the flattening of the roads and they update this information > daily. Why not? Good question, interesting problem. Can I think about it ? :) I'm sorry I haven't been reading a lot of blogposts lately, I'll try to keep up next time. > * “Nobody uses OpenStreetMap for that”: nobody used OSM for car > navigation before we had a road map. Nobody used it for hiking before we > had a hiking map. Nobody used it for navigating with a wheelchair before > we had a wheelmap. Again, not a valid argument in my opinion. In most cases you have a valid point. But there are some technical issues that would prevent data consumers to turn to OSM for related reasons. The better question is : Would I turn to OSM to get that information? Will I ever fully trust this data to make potential life-changing decisions. What if this vandal decides he want's to prank crazy dudes in sportscars and say it's flattened when it's not? There is still a line somewhere when we have to say: this -currently- does not really belong in OSM. But feel free to introduce a new tagging scheme for it or start using one. but those lines shift under influence of many variables, you -the contributor- are one of them. Happy mapping Joost, I hope you're not too mad. Let's try to not misinterpret too much next time. So as a funny note, == VOTE URL !!! == _______________________________________________ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
