Hi all,
switching to English to let Andy Townsend/OSM's Data Working Group
understand my PoV.
On Sun, Sep 4, 2016 at 2:03 AM, Luca Meloni <lmelonim...@yahoo.it> wrote:
>
> *Also, and that’s what the issue is all about, there are bilingual
> toponyms and traffic signs. During the decades a lot of names have been
> translated and changed (sometimes very badly) from the local languages to
> Italian, but the original ones are used by a lot of people, as much as the
> Italian ones and depending on the person sometimes more. Recently those
> toponyms can be found on some traffic signs, in particular those referring
> to towns, villages and cities.*
> *Those traffic signs can be found in all of the island, both together with
> the Italian ones:*
>
> *http://www.enricolobina.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/2012-10-29-14.58.23-500x375.jpg
> <http://www.enricolobina.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/2012-10-29-14.58.23-500x375.jpg>*
> *https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Segnaletica_bilingue_Sardegna.gif
> <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Segnaletica_bilingue_Sardegna.gif>*
> *https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Cartello_Catalano_AHO.jpg
> <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Cartello_Catalano_AHO.jpg>
> (this one is in Catalan, from the city of L’Alguer/Alghero, but the
> situation is similar if we talk about Sardinian or about other local
> languages)*
>
> *and by themselves, separated even by hundreds of meters from the Italian
> ones (if those can be found in the same street):*
>
> *https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Segnaletica_bilingue_Sardegna_Siniscola.jpg
> <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Segnaletica_bilingue_Sardegna_Siniscola.jpg>*
> *http://178.239.177.113/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Nugoro_strassenschild_sardisch.jpg
> <http://178.239.177.113/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Nugoro_strassenschild_sardisch.jpg>*
> *http://salimbasarda.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/cartello-posada.jpg
> <http://salimbasarda.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/cartello-posada.jpg>*
>
>
> *The situation is the same, in their respective areas, for all the other
> local languages of the island: Catalan (in L’Alguer/Alghero), Gallurese (a
> variant of Corsican), Sassarese and Tabarchin (a variant of Ligurian). When
> it comes to town and city names almost every centre has its bilingual
> traffic signs.*
>
The situation regarding Sardinian place signs is not different that the one
found in other parts of Italy. I believe this started to occur in the late
'80s/early '90s after some so called pro-independence parties like the
Northern League gained the majority in different local city councils.
For example these place signs can be found in Piedomont (sorry for Google
maps usage):
https://www.google.it/maps/@45.3485665,8.2531748,3a,15y,349.75h,85.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7hsNlOeDLhyEct0OH5OVtA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
(BTW, this name is misspelled in Piedmontese).
https://www.google.it/maps/@45.461616,8.1034612,3a,15y,172.21h,86.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqJl-_xm8aSfDfLFZGAvjZQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
Please note that Piedomontese is, likewise Sardinian, recognised among
European minority languages since 1981 (Report 4745 by the Council of
Europe) and it is also surveyed by UNESCO Atlas of the World's Languages in
Danger.
If you access UNESCO Atlas of the World's Languages in Danger (
http://www.unesco.org/languages-atlas/index.php) you will find **32
different languages** surveyed in Italy.
About other languages spoken in Sardinia: Gallurese is a variant of
Corsican which is derived from Tuscan (and Tuscan *is* the Italian
language) and therefore are mutual intelligible, Tabarchin is a Ligurian
dialect.
*To allow OSM to express this situation, and to allow anyone travelling
> inside the island to use it to orientate themselves, the “name” tags were
> modified to have both the names on it, and I proposed to order them by
> putting as first the one from the language with more native speakers (since
> the idea, at least initially, was to have the same standard as Alto
> Adige/**Südtirol,
> and that's how it works there) and adding the singular language tags for
> the single names (Italian included) for a quick search. The order have been
> discussed later, but those discussions were always *
> *overshadowed by the ones about the possibility of having both names at
> all or not.*
>
I think that using the South Tyrolean model in Sardinia (and other parts of
Italy) is not appropriate.
In South Tyrol there are 3 different ethnic groups speaking 3 different
languages. There are German-language schools and Italian language schools.
The place names and the road signs are bilingual by law (or trilingual in
the Ladin valleys). In Sardinia, however there is only one ethnic group who
mostly speak two languages, the local one - not always Sardinian as
already stated - and Italian. There are no schools where the instruction
takes place using the Sardinian language and place names are sometimes
bilingual. There is an atlas of Sardinian place names in the works. City
council acts are written exclusively in Italian and the city name is always
written in Italian in these acts (sometimes together with the Sardinian
name). The websites of city councils are written in Italian only and the
town hall addresses listed there are exclusively in Italian.
Moreover, messages in the OSM mailing list specific for South Tyrol are
written in German, Italian and English but messages in the Sardinian
mailing list are written exclusively in Italian. And I think this is a sign
of how widespread the Sardinian usage is - at least as a written language.
> *Leaving only the Italian one in the “name” tag could, in fact, risk to
> confuse someone that, moving from one place to another, would not recognize
> the names on the signs, and would also remove a lot of cultural and
> historical informations and change a thing that for a lot of Sardinians
> could be quite important."*
>
I don't see how leaving only the Italian name in the name tag would arise
confusion when the whole population speaks Italian.
I do think it is wrong to put the Sardinian name in the name tag along with
the Italian. I believe that tag must include the name of the town as
recognised by the Italian government or one of its agencies (and this is
true for South Tyrol and false for Sardinia). I'm in favour of using
specific language name tags.
If instead the rule is changed to include Sardinian names this might
quickly lead to have other parts of Italy wanting to apply the same rule
and the name tag will quickly become an unusable Babel. This effect is
known in Italian as "Campanilismo" (from "campanile", the Italian word for
bell tower) where every town regards itself as special and different from
its neighbours.
I think it would be far better to have a specific map in Sardinian. They
did so in Friuli, where they made a map in Friulan, and I find it a
beautiful and clean example:
http://www.mapefurlane.eu/
Bye,
Andrea
PS I believe this edit war is silly and both parties have they share of
guilt.
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