(I didn’t write new topic even there was big difference with topic title because Max raised naming issue in this thread. Is it better to start new thread?)
By the way, official Romanized form of 경복궁 is Gyeongbokgung ( https://www.korean.go.kr/front/page/pageView.do?page_id=P000150&mn_id=99 ) and official English name is Gyeongbokgung Palace. There are instructions related English translation; 공공 용어의 영어 번역 및 표기 지침 (English translation and marking instructions of public terms, https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-H3vA9-nLFkQWNLYjJsN00tRG8/view?usp=sharing) and 문화재명칭 영문표기 기준 규칙 (English marking instruction of culture properties, https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-H3vA9-nLFkai1VZUEyRnNXVTA/view?usp=sharing) . I uploaded them into Google Drive because they were written in HWP and hardly see it without a commercial software. My concern is not that case, because there exist differences between translated form and Romanized form. Then, how to treat name of places like 서울, 인천, 부산, ….? I saw Seoul, Incheon, and Busan at name:en tags. However they are truly English? Aren’t just Romanized forms? If they are not English, then is it OK to delete name:en tag? Where does criteria exists dividing them? I don’t have idea and it look like I won’t have. That was reason that I suggested to write down Romanized form of non-composite place name into name:en. It will reduce complexity of finding proper tag name as well as helps non-Korean speaking people because many renderers call-backed into name:en rather than name:ko_rm or name:ko_latn. They can get readable characters without special care of Korean for renderers (apologize for missing describe on non-composite place name. I used it to describe names like 서울, 인천, 부산, …) 2017-03-01 14:22 GMT+09:00 Hanbyul Jo <boonp...@gmail.com>: > (This discussion seems to be off from the original topic of the thread, > but ...!) > > I do agree that ko-Latin data need general improvement (also guide for > Korean region editing), but feel not sure about consolidating ko-Latin into > ko-en. > > I am thinking about names being used as landmarks like Han River (Which > would be Hangang in ko-Latin) and Gyeongbokgung Palace ( which would be > Kyoungbokgung in ko-Latin). It is usually valuable to know how locals > pronounce/call the pois like these, and is also helpful what they actually > are. (Is it a river? a palace?) I don't have specific use case in my > hands, but do think ko-en and ko-Latin both have their own functions. > > It would be ideal to have both, but some names ,especially address ,are > likely to have same name as Latin and as English, so users wouldn't feel > very motivated (or sure) to type two different tags with a same name. In > this case, renderer can fall back to the other one if there is no matching > one. (likely fall back to ko-en when there is no ko_Latin) > > > > 2017-02-28 10:18 GMT-05:00 느림보 <nri...@gmail.com>: > >> I’m new comer to OSM community. I joined the community after I noticed my >> village was not displayed on Pokémon GO. I tried to join several years ago, >> but I hesitated because I couldn’t find good guidance for editing. I didn’t >> want to follow non-official source of guidance like blog posts, and gave up >> soon. >> >> At this present, I don’t understand guidance for Korean region clearly. >> I’m just writing down my understanding and my rules on my profile page >> believing someone will correct my mistake if she/he would see it. >> >> I think some complexity come from name tags. There are many name tags for >> one Korean POI -- name, name:ko, name:en, name:ko_hanja, name:ko_rm. As Max >> pointed out, some name tag has English and Korean such as "name=새마을11교 (Sae >> Village 11 Gyo)". I understood the usage of “한국어 (English)” came from >> technical reason and the rule was changed “한국어” on Oct. 2014 (Source: >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Korea_Naming_Convention.) >> >> However, many POIs are remained with “한국어 (English)” without written >> guidance (deleted and/or revised). In this reason, the first thing I did >> was searching history of naming rules. I don’t know why the community left >> “한국어 (English)” style until now, but believe such old-styles are fixed >> immediately and automatically. I could write a bot if the community allows. >> >> I have doubt on name:ko_rm and name:ko_hanja. Many ko_rm field was >> transliterated mechanically from its name without concern exceptions >> defined in Revised Romanization of Korean. Then how about hand over >> Romanization of Korean to renderer if need? By the way, is useful for >> foreigners? Is there a renderer displaying ko_rm? As a Korean, I don’t know >> advantage of managing ko_rm field manually. Related this field, I saw >> deleting line on ko_rm and suggestion of ko_Latn in >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization page, but it isn’t >> harmonized with other wiki pages. >> >> As well as, I suggest to modify ‘name:en’ to cover Revised Romanize >> non-composite place name. Many POIs’ name:en tags have Romanize Korean >> only, but it is not written as guidance. It may be arguable because >> strictly Romanized Korean is not English. However such exception will help >> foreigners rather than omitting or writing in tag:ko_rm tag. >> >> p.s. I used 한국어 in this discussion to represent Korean written in Hangeul. >> >> >> 2017-02-24 23:37 GMT+09:00 Max <abonneme...@revolwear.com>: >> >>> Simon, off cause you are right. I was not the one finding out about the >>> vworld image usage. I am not patrolling OSM, I don't even know the tools >>> how to do it. I don't feel a responsibility for Korea nor do I feel I can >>> speak for OSM Korea, because it doesn't really exist. I only heard about it >>> here on the list and thought a issue in the ID bugreacker is a good idea. >>> >>> However I think this situation is a good opportunity and an experience >>> to learn from. We can create the structures to make sure this can't happen >>> again. Or at least raise the awareness. >>> >>> I have a few thoughts. Fist let me try an asessment of the situation for >>> those from outside: >>> >>> 1. OSM in Korea is in a quite dire state. There are only very few >>> contibutors, the quality of data is low, Most of it still stems from an >>> import that is very old. Village POI are usually so off that it's >>> impossible to know which village has which name without local knowledge. >>> Junctions are imported as lone points, often with steets missing. Bridges >>> too. >>> The language is a mess, with "English" and Korean mixed in brakets ((and >>> double brackets too)). Half-translations such as "name=새마을11교(Sae Village >>> 11 Gyo)"(sic) >>> >>> 2. Bing Satellite imagery is not available in big parts of the country. >>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=16/37.1364/128.2107 >>> Mapbox Satellite often only in B/W, cloudy covered or low-res >>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=13/38.0416/128.2093 >>> >>> 3. Commercial Map providers like Naver and Daum on the other hand are >>> extremely detailed, up to date including even streetview from bicycle >>> tracks and such. >>> >>> 4. The OSM community is very loose to say the least. I don't think >>> anyone knows someone else IRL. There is the mailinglist with some months of >>> 0 emails. It consists largely of expats and most posts are in English. >>> >>> --- >>> >>> In this situation, now we have suddenly new users contributing a lot of >>> detail http://osmcha.mapbox.com/46332326/ >>> But they are not reacting on changeset comments or direct messages, >>> maybe because of a language barrier. >>> >>> Here my thoughts: >>> 1. Is it somehow possible to not scare those away, now that their >>> contributions will be reverted? Is there a way to say: "Thank you for your >>> contribution, unfortunately we had to delete you edits because of legal >>> problems from derived maps from unlicensed satellite images. But we want >>> you to stay in our community"? >>> >>> 2. How to address the teenagers and Pokemon Go users with a lot of time >>> and turn their obsession into something that is for the common good. >>> (honestly that is what OSM is for me personally: Procrastination, but with >>> the added bonus of doing something for mankind, compare this to playing >>> candy crush.) >>> >>> 3. Should we embrace those kids better? Maybe having a booth at a games >>> convention where pokemon users go? >>> >>> 4. Should OSM Korea make an effort to become some sort of organization? >>> Or would that lead to more problems even? Around Daegu I noticed that a >>> lot of army bases are mapped, even with their names, which are completely >>> censored on any other service. South Korea government and authorities might >>> not find this funny. This is a very young democracy with the army and >>> secret service having a lot of power. I think i remember a story that Revi >>> has made some experiences here when he was editing wikipedia. >>> >>> my 2 1/2 ct. >>> >>> m. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2017년 02월 24일 13:08, Simon Poole wrote: >>> >>>> Just to be clear: a report to the DWG needs neither meetings, roles, >>>> responsibilities or a common language (well it is likely that a report >>>> in English will be easier to understand, but that is about it). >>>> >>>> I realize that there might be a cultural hurdle, but any OSM contributor >>>> can and should, if other avenues have not worked (naturally we all >>>> prefer if things can be fixed locally and need not be escalated), report >>>> use of sources that we do not have permission to use. >>>> >>>> Simon >>>> >>>> >>>> Am 24.02.2017 um 12:53 schrieb Max: >>>> >>>>> Paul Norman also has complained that nobody has contacted the DWG. >>>>> https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issue >>>>> s/1464#issuecomment-282268051 >>>>> I guess this is because there is no organizational structure in the >>>>> Korean OSM community (yet). No IRL meetings, no roles, no >>>>> responsiblities, maybe not even a common language. As everyone can see >>>>> discussions on talk-ko happen to be mainly in English, so most mombers >>>>> are "expats" me included, and I am even not any more in Korea. >>>>> my 2ct.. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2017년 02월 23일 21:00, Simon Poole wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Just a couple of notes on the use of the VWorld imagery: >>>>>> >>>>>> * when you experience use of questionable sources in a larger way, >>>>>> please inform the Data Working Group (d...@osmfoundation.org) and >>>>>> take action without too much delay. These problems tend to get >>>>>> larger, not smaller with time. >>>>>> * please point out the use of problematic sources via changeset >>>>>> comments to the mappers in question and point out that they are >>>>>> doing nobody a favour. >>>>>> * while not speaking for the DWG, I suspect that due to the touchy >>>>>> nature of this specific source we will want to redact the edits >>>>>> (which removes them from history too) so likely it doesn't make >>>>>> sense to revert them manually. As the changesets in question are >>>>>> easy to identify this should not be a larger problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> Simon >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Talk-ko mailing list >>>>> Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org >>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Talk-ko mailing list >>>> Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org >>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Talk-ko mailing list >>> Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Talk-ko mailing list >> Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-ko mailing list > Talk-ko@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko > >
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