On Sat, 1 Aug 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
2009/8/1 Christiaan Welvaart <c...@daneel.dyndns.org>:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Why would who maintains a road directly determine its administrative
classification? If a municipality decides that some road is a motorway, we
better tag it as such. In The Netherlands some provinces maintain short
stretches of motorway, for example, while most motorways are maintained by
the national government. The maintainer of a road can be tagged
independently. So is it really a big change for Germany and Italy to define
the highway tag as the administrative classification of the road?
seems as if you got me completely wrong. The administrative
classification _IS_ about who maintains the road (at least in Germany
and Italy). While BAB (Bundesautobahn / motorway) and Bundestra??e
(federal road) are maintained by the federal administration,
Landstra??en (~"Land"-roads) are maintained by the Bundesland (~region)
and Kreisstra??en (comunal road) by the municipality. But as I tried to
explain this does not mean that every Bundesstra??e is a bigger and
more important road. There are Kreisstra??en (comunal roads) that are
more important (and physically bigger) than other Bundesstra??en or
Landstra??en. That's why we cancelled the idea of tagging highway
according to administrative class already years ago. Of course I don't
want to reimplement it.
It seems to be an interpretation problem for the phrase 'administrave
class' then because I clearly argued that who is the maintainer of the
road should not directly influence the value of the highway tag. What I
was trying to say is that I'd prefer to tag the importance that the road
maintainer sets for a road. This *class* can usually be derived from how
it was built, the maximum speed on the road, etc., not from how many cars
actually drive on it or even its position in the grid. Road maintainers
also take other things into account like how many houses are near the
road, how much pollution and noise will be generated by traffic on the
road, etc.
On the other hand a road's class is often not clearly visible except for
motorways. Also, there is usually no uniform classification system
available - there is a proposed system for The Netherlands but it only has
3 categories which is not really enough...
So in the context of Germany I say take 'Autobahn' and 'Kraftfahrstrasse'
as a classes for the highway tag (not 'Bundesstrasse' and
'Landesstrasse'). These terms are defined in law, so it is not something
OSM invented or a vague importance of the road.
The problem with 'importance' is that it is too vague and it is the task of
the road maintainer to determine/define a road's function. Also, if there is
a mismatch between a road's classification and its 'importance',
we should tag the classification.
what do you mean by classification? Administrative, physical or
importance? There is clearly all the three of them, and of course I
want to tag the administrative classification (inside ref-tag) but not
as the parameter for the highway-class.
I mean how the road maintainer designates the road.
An example is a route through a town
to a motorway access. The municipality this town belongs to considers this
route inappropriate, while the municipality where the route starts considers
it an appropriate route. The road inside the town is still tagged as
secondary, while its maxspeed was already lowered to 30km/h. AFAIK its
'importance' has not changed, however, as no alternative route to this
motorway access is available (there are several alternative access points to
this an other motorways, though). So, do you think we should keep it as
secondary which probably matches its importance (access to a motorway)
yes, of course. Because as you wrote: there is no other way, i.e. if
you want to go to this motorway, you will have to take it -> it is
important, gets a high class (secondary or primary).
No, I said there are other routes. This is just the shortest or fastest
route for some people I guess.
or
tag it as tertiary or even lower which matches its classification (only
meant for traffic from and to the town)?
of course not.
Well I disagree. IMHO we should tag what is 'on the ground', not invent
things or try to tag what's in people's minds. If a government body gives
a road it maintains some importance (or class/type) we should tag it
accordingly.
Another example is Bicycle streets. These are designated by municipalities
in .nl (and .de) but they do not have a uniform importance: for cars they
are e.g. a living street but for bicycles they are part of an important
and much used route. These roads are classified specially by the road
maintainer, and this should be reflected in the highway= value. What is
the conclusion according to your proposal?
Anyway how do you determine if something is a cycleway, from its
importance and its position in the grid? That does not work while it would
be nice to have a uniform definition for the highway key.
Christiaan
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