It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this.
--- On Fri, 5/18/12, George Veni <gv...@nckri.org> wrote: From: George Veni <gv...@nckri.org> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: "'freddie poer'" <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com> List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Friday, May 18, 2012, 1:06 PM Recreational caving is the backbone of all cave related activities. Cave science, cave management, making the public supportive and aware of the importance of caves, cannot be done without recreational caving. It provides the starting point where most cave scientists, managers, educators, etc., get the spark to pursue their careers. It is the basic training ground for those cavers who want to focus on mapping, photographing, diving, and doing so many other things in and related to caves. Caving organizations from the local to international levels understand this relationship and their charters include “cave exploration” (or related terms) as important a part of their structure as the other specialties. In my view, anyone who feels that one group of cavers is better than another is missing the big picture. The recreational caver who doesn’t survey, do restoration projects, or collect scientific data is still providing the integral service of visiting caves, reporting discoveries and changes, and caving with and thus training others who may decide to specialize their cave activities. Lastly, I prefer the term “recreational” caver to “sport” caver. The latter implies competitions and game-type activities that are, if not reckless in a cave, then certainly have the potential to harm caves. “Recreational” caver is better but not perfect. I love doing science, exploration, survey, photography, restoration, training, and visiting caves with no other purpose than to enjoy being there. And I find it all “recreational.” George *************************** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 13:28 To: gv...@nckri.org Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Does this mean that you are in favor of sport caving? --- On Thu, 5/17/12, George Veni <gv...@nckri.org> wrote: From: George Veni <gv...@nckri.org> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: "'Texas Cavers'" <Texascavers@texascavers.com> List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 10:06 AM Reading this e-mail exchange and the perceived focus on too many science articles in the TC made me think that I didn’t recall any recent science articles. So I took a quick at the table of contents for the last nine issues through the start of 2010 and found a total of 60 articles listed. I found an abundance of reports on surveys, projects, and generally lots of “fun” (non-project/non-survey/non-sciency) caving Texas cavers are doing in Texas, with a small number of reports on caving in Mexico. I found reports on TCRs, TSA conventions, equipment reports, and news I expect most cavers would be interested in. I only found one article that could be classified as “science,” a nice 1-page report by Jerry Atkinson and Butch Fralia on bad air in Texas caves. Considering how many Texas caves have bad air, I’d also expect this would be of interest to most cavers who generally aren’t interested in science articles. So for at least for the past two years, the TC has had a nice mix of articles with no bias toward science. As I also skimmed through these articles, I was impressed with the great quality of caving, maps, reporting, and information provided by Texas cavers, and Mark’s skills at coaxing the articles and photos and providing them to us in a beautiful format. It has always been necessary for TC editors to arm-twist articles from cavers. And there are always cycles where minimal twisting is needed and times like now where tons of pressure produces little result. I deeply appreciate Mark’s efforts and those of past editors. It is not an easy job. In hopes that it helps Mark at least a little, here are two thoughts that might get some of you to send in material. 1) If you are organizing a trip or project, the cave owner or manager may want a trip report. Sometimes they don’t ask for one, but to maintain access to the cave many cavers will often send an occasional trip report or summary of trips. If you do this, and the owner doesn’t object, send a copy of the TC. 2) If you a new caver and think us old timers aren’t interested in what you’re doing, you’re wrong. When I started caving, I had a tough time getting on trips and the attention of some of the big-time cavers. I soon discovered that after I started sending reports to the TC, I was suddenly welcomed by many cavers and onto trips and projects. I’ve seen this happen over and over with many other cavers since then. Publishing articles in the TC shows people what you’re doing, that you in fact know what you’re doing as a skilled and responsible caver, and increases their confidence and desire to spend time with you and to invite you on trips. It doesn’t happen overnight, but it does start to happen after a few articles. Again, my thanks to Mark for his excellent work on the TC. George From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 05:59 To: texascavers@texascavers.com Cc: Mimi Jasek Subject: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few years and whose opinions I highly respect. In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER. My responses are in BOLD TYPE. Mark, I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists. We are sport cavers. We cave for the joy and fun and love of this unusual activity, and the beauty we get to see in the pursuit of our passion. We cave, we map, we take pictures. Agreed, as am I and my kids. We go for the fun and camaraderie of it and for the chance to explore a new, alien world. It may not be virgin cave, but, if we haven't been there, it's "virgin" to us! What we don't do is send in the simple and fun trip reports that our caving would produce, probably so as not to place ourselves as objects of criticism from those who have elevated this activity into such lofty scientific and expedition type reporting that our efforts would be ridiculed! Have you read the old TCs from the 70s etc? How fun were those trip reports and novice articles? Didn't you read on cavetex how that one Aggie caver's wild and rambling report got slammed? Agree again and, yes, I have read them. They are a lot of fun and I enjoy the irreverent attitude in a lot of the articles. I also see how, even back then, there was complaining about no inputs from anyone and the state of the TSA! I used to get slammed by a few folks about fonts, punctuation, and the usual BS, as the Aggie report was slammed. (I enjoyed the article and told them as much). I think you and others - like maybe our current officers - need to try an attitude adjustment in the minds of Texas cavers old and new. Let people know the TC is open to all who wish to send in something about caving here, or if somewhere else, caving done by Texas cavers wherever! Trip reports, poetry, songs, art etc. Scientific and expedition project work NOT necessary! Just cavers writing about caving. I agree and have made repeated appeals to newbie writers in the past in my various postings on CaveTex that you don't have to be a Nobel laureate in order to send something in. The only thing I get back is the sounds of crickets chirping. Although we all love the amazing and scientific/expedition type articles so beautifully and painstakingly produced, I feel that should not be the only content. Is notice by the NSS more important than the continuation of the TC for the long run? Without material, there is no TC, so perhaps that wonderful caving mag should strive to return to simpler and fun times?:) Maybe that would encourage more input. Wholeheartedly agree again, Mimi. If people don't care enough to send material in, I don't care enough to be the Editor after this next issue of the TC. Think about what I've said here. Our world is so electronic now. People have Internet, cable tv, Facebook, etc. It is so easy to produce quality articles with all the tools we have at our disposal now. But people are busy living in our fast paced world, and will not take time to contribute to something if made to feel inferior or unappreciated. They have better ways to use their time for their own personal enjoyment and fulfillment. Wow, we agree again. It’s the dumbing down, ADD world that the digital age has wrought. No one reads papers, reads books, or writes or reads anything of heft and substance. "Idiocracy" is becoming the new norm (look it up in Wikipedia) and people would rather post some nonsensical post about their need for coffee on Facebook than create anything of substance. Please! If you bothered to finish this rambling mess, hopefully it will give you some insight on how to reinvigorate the TC. One article I would love to see would need to be done by Gil Ediger or someone else with long time knowledge of the Texas Old Timers Reunion. (Sorry, I am an old timer and old fashioned. Not pc at all.) I heard Gil talking to some newer cavers about the significance of all the images in the cave drawing now on the back of the tshirts. Let's have an article with a breakdown of the image - like an outline with numbers on each part - and the story behind each image. Although an active Texas caver since the 70s, I do not know who all the people are who are depicted, nor the stories about them as to how or why they were chosen to be there. This article alone could take up pages in an issue, and I think there are a lot of cavers who don't know this information and would find it interesting. That is an excellent idea and I like it a LOT! Anyway, enough. After all the years I spent helping on the TC - from writing, taking pics, typing, layout work, printing, assembling, mailing - I would hate to see it go down. I still enjoy it! Attitudes must change to assure survival. Of course I personally feel the caving world has gotten too lofty and proud and political, but I am just a simple sport caver:) What do I know, and who cares? You and James know a LOT and I appreciate your insight and observations, Mimi! Imagine putting the TC out every month like Jim used to do! We used to write a LOT of trip reports and articles from our own trips, projects, etc, for the same reason - used them when no submissions! I have done the same, Mimi, but doing it every month like y'all used to? Wow! I will say that in this age of electronic wizardry, I really don't see why you don't have submissions. It's so easy to send stuff in. So, either everyone is putting the reports in grotto newsletters and not sharing with the TC, all active cavers have lost your TC info, or all caving these days is "secret" and not for sharing. Surely couldn't be laziness or apathy! Believe it or not, not ONE grotto is doing newsletters anymore! UTG hasn't done one in years, the DFW's (Oztotl Caver) crashed and burned and they have resorted to a blog on their website which no one posts to, the Maverick Grotto is kaput, the Lubbock Grotto doesn't do one, Bill Bentley did a great job with the PBSS's Hole News, but is it finis, and the Houston Grotto used to have a newsletter when Kevin and Emily McGowan were doing it, but, it also is no more. At this rate, The TEXAS CAVER is headed for extinction and people can post their pictures and fluff comments to FB. They all seem to like FB better. Heck, my kids have been on a bunch of trips and even I can't get them to write on! With all the organized caving at preserves, projects, etc, with a report from each of those trips you should have lots of material for each issue. Rather see all that in the TC than on cavetex:) Pics included. Amen, sister! Amazing that you agreed with me on so much! I am an older caver, and have always been a bit quiet due to not wanting to make waves:) Jim knows I can get in trouble if I open up too much:) My opinions can be a bit harsh. Sound fine to me! First, you can't just post on cavetex and ask people to submit something:) Has to be more personal. Jim used to write over 365 letters a year asking for submissions and helping folks with ideas for articles. Of course, that was with snail mail! How easy can e-mail be in comparison? I have appealed by email to folks that have either posted trip announcements, been on a trip, or have conducted talks, etc. at Grotto meetings. I would say my batting average is at 5% response. The last couple of months, it has been a big, fat zero response. Some people who complain the most about some things contribute little. (I did not say that, though:)) Once again, Amen, sister! I really feel cavers are so into their own projects - secret and public - that they simply do not want to publish info so as not to be bothered with others wanting to join in. Just too busy, as stated before. I am older, kids grown and gone, but still work full time and have family responsibilities that leave not much me time. So I get it. But some efforts are worth the rewards. Agreed and been there, done that. I still found time to write trip reports when I was the DFWG’s Oztotl Caver editor. Once one sits down to write it, it usually goes very fast. Also, I realize many of our caving movers and shakers are either older and feel they have already given enough, or are younger and want some life outside of caving, so again choose not to give it any more time than they do. But again, three months to come up with something seems reasonable, right? I know what you say in reference to the armchair/chronologically challenged cavers not being very active anymore. But, heck, I would be happy to receive submission of past adventures in exploration for The Carbide Corner column, but, to no avail there, either. Fritz Holt and Mark Minton have supplied me pieces, as has Bill Steele, but, that’s about it! Gil is not the only one to approach about the OT graphic. Ask around in the UTG, whoever makes the shirt, or put that part of my suggestion out there. See if a group will come forward and do it! I could be labeled as stupid and out of the loop for not knowing, but Waco is not a caving community! Neither is the Dallas area where I live, but, hopefully someone will step up and write a piece and supply me the graphic. I just don't know if there is the interest in the TC anymore to keep it alive, but time will tell. Jim tells me there is gobs of caving going on in Texas, but unless your involved, you don't hear about it. You’re right, Mimi. There is a gob of caving going on, but no one wants to write a report on it, or, the ones that have written reports in the past are tired of doing all of the documenting and want/need someone else to do it. I know I fall in the latter category. Gas prices on our limited budget make us pick and choose where and when we go places. Agreed. Hmmm - maybe people could write anonymous articles, as in no cave names, county, or road locations. Just somewhere in Texas kind of thing. That could preserve their project's anonymity, but still give folks some entertaining moments of underground activity. No directionality even on maps! Even leave off names of those on trips - like true fiction stuff! Worth a suggestion? (Jim just said yuck to this, for no one likes to hear about the secret caving of others - even fictionalized! But if you don't know if it's real, gets your attention, right?) Excellent idea! Ok, enough. We do not want to be in charge of anything anymore, but don't mind giving out ideas or suggestions. Because we live so far from most caving and have limited travel resources, we have to sometimes miss things we used to attend always. We do what we can, and lend support where feasible. I sincerely enjoy your thoughts and observations and, maybe, with the future of The TEXAS CAVER being on the chopping block, this message would elicit a response. If no response, the masses will have spoken. Either way, it will generate some interest and, by God, the TC needs it! I'll hope for interest and submissions. Just hard to understand why the newer, younger generation of Texas cavers are not as passionate about sharing their experiences as we older ones. Not all of us are on fb or have smart phones, and I still think one of the best parts of a trip is the vocal - or printed - rehashing of the experience. Oh, and the bath!:) Thanks! Mimi and Mark
