George, I understand your point and as a newbie I, myself, was guilty of a certain amount of this (although I now try to respond directly rather than to the whole list most of the time). However, I would like to know what you consider cave related. I would think certain topics under global warming would be directly cave related; I asked about truck tents one time because I always camped when I went caving and wanted some information on best tents; I just responded to the posting on the Sonora pics because I thought I could offer some suggestions on how to make better prints (based on 20 years of desktop publishing). So could you please clarify for me what you do and don't consider cave related. These topics seem to run their courses over a short period of time, but I do think that some of them--especially the ones concerning religion and politics (guilty)--should be answered off list to the person directly. This last one on religion was started innocently enough by the mention of a journal article. I guess we need a little more direction on what is and what isn't pertinent. Oh yes, and plastic bags, when they were new and cavers were still using carbide, we used them all the time to carry our spent carbide out of the cave environment. Louise
From: gveni@warpdriveonline.comTo: texascavers@texascavers.comDate: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:34:33 -0700Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Thoughts on OT postings Kara, Possibly it was my message that made you feel “bullied.” That wasn’t my intent. My basic message was that the listserver has rules. If we subscribe, we have an obligation to follow them. To ignore them is disrespectful at best. Like you, I value socializing with cavers about non-caving issues. But that isn’t what TexasCavers.com was set up for. Yes, plastic bags, global warming, etc., do affect cavers and everyone else on the planet, but those topics are not about caving; they are not cave-related. Go to www.texascavers.com and you’ll see it asks that postings be cave-related. Several times over the years people have suggested that a listserver be set up for cavers who want to socialize on line about non-caving items. I think that is an excellent idea and encourage someone to do it. And people who want to socialize can then do so freely without spamming those signed up for cave-related discussions. George -----Original Message-----From: Kara Savvas [mailto:misskarabi...@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 2:57 PMTo: George NincehelserCc: texascavers@texascavers.comSubject: Re: [Texascavers] Thoughts on OT postings I have to agree with Mr. Nincehelser. The discussions I enjoy the most in life, that are most likely to propel my interest in something worthwhile, do not cling to the Safe and the Known and the Agreed Upon. And they often include, in my own opinion, lots of Annoying and Ridiculous and Controversy and even Tangents, most especially when they involve other cavers!! (Haven't you noticed that?) Thank goodness I can use my ability to excuse myself from a conversation when it takes an unproductive turn. Thank goodness life isn't moderated to the point of constant comfort and familiarity.Sometimes respectfulness is challenging. I'm glad I've had more than two chances to get it right. I'm not saying that's a blank check for disrespect, I'm just saying that being good at it is a learning process, and I trust that most of us are trying to get there. In the meantime, and this is also a challenge for even the best of us - try not to take stuff too personally, especially when it comes from a bunch of yahoos on the Internet. (that's a joke, folks. We're all yahoos, get it? Ha ha. Oh come on, If you can't laugh at yourself....) Educational journals are made up of completely topic oriented, educational articles from experts and experienced members of the field. Communities are made up of humans - angry, helpful, unprofessional, experienced, opinionated, curious, learned, mistaken, giving, uninformed, kind, supportive, different, smart, annoying. I don't ever feel a bond to the educational and caving journals I receive at home. They have never delivered soup to me when I was sick, or offered me comfort, or shared my joys in life, even if we don't regularly 'get along'. And Frankly, evolution, plastic bags, and global warming are completely relevant in this forum, as they have an impact on us as cavers, scientists, on caves themselves, and as people who enjoy the natural world and want to know more about it, and want that kind of education available to future generations. I appreciate the people who don't shy away from talking about it. No one has a monopoly on knowing what's relevant and important, and no one should. Hopefully, the desire to strive for respectfulness is the only thing we should all agree on. I guess if this really is the end of OT (which, from the looks of the last 9 out of 12 posts, thank goodness it isn't) it is time for someone like me to excersize that ability to walk away, and decide if it isn't time to take a break from it, and enjoy an unrestrained caving community exchange elsewhere, but I also didn't want to be bullied into feeling irelevant for enjoying the OT's. I considered shutting up, but that's not my way, so thanks for letting me have my say - I believe dissent is important. Kara
