RD, I thought that this string had died but apparently not. It will take me a few days to find the time to respond to your post, as it did you to mine. Mine will not be as comprehensive or as well thought out as yours but I will give it a shot, whether it is my best or not. I am a little slow and it takes me a while to ponder what I am going to say so therefore I often hesitate (procrastinate) to do anything that requires thinking. Don't expect much beyond my original response below but who knows, I may think of something.
Best wishes, Fritz _____ From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:48 PM To: List: OT-TexasCavers; Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Again Fritz, I am not bashing anyone or any organization, just passing along my own views on the question of the cost/benefits of TSA membership. So, again, the "enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR" and "various caving activities" is not tied to TSA membership. The Spring Convention is. "TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access" : I agree that the TCMA and also the TCC enables access to caves, but I don't see how the TSA does, except through organizational contributions to land acquisition activities, in which the TSA acts as a conduit only. At least there are no administrative fees or overhead costs associated. "officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues" Why would you avoid using your own judgement in estimating appropriate dues for an organization you belong to. I suppose we all are becoming a nation of followers, I just supposed cavers would be on the trailing edge of this trend. "I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants." Agreed, but there are two ways to make the equation of income generation work. The current scheme seems to be few members with high dues per member. One unintended (?) result of this policy is to keep the organization closely held, meaning old-timers tend to dominate, which makes it a conservative group, ie preservation of status quo/slow to change. The alternative approach is to have a large membership base with small dues per member. This approach could generate the same revenue, and involve more cavers, new cavers, young cavers, as icing on top. "I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts..." I have been trying to point out that there is not a causal link between this enjoyment and TSA membership. This list, for instance is not owned by the TSA. It is made possible entirely through the good graces of the list owner, Charles Goldsmith. Now, more unsubstantiated views on the subject from cavers I have talked with recently. One, a qualified candidate for the position of newsletter editor for the UT Grotto, replied, somewhat surprised at my suggestion that the UTG needed a newsletter, replied "Why? We have the Texas caver". Another, very involved Texas caver stated in confidence that "the only benefit you get from TSA membership is the TC". I know that the TSA members who have stated opposing viewpoints are genuinely proud of their organization and the work they see it as accomplishing. But I see it as necessary to discount that dedication somewhat by the "buy-in" that members of organizations usually get by belonging to a group, meaning it is slightly more difficuly for them to view the organization objectively as whole from inside. I, and others before me, are suggesting change, but it is going to be hard to accomplish due to the nature of the organization -----Original Message----- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 1:13 PM To: RD Milhollin Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked caves. Fritz _____ From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those.
