der Mouse wrote: >> Yep, you are right,I admit it, I discover hidden servers on my ISP >> network and use them without their permission. I pay them enough >> money so I couldn't care less. Common[sic], can you imagine a >> provider complaining because one of its customer uses its ntp servers >> ? > > If it's one not set up for client use? Yes.
If it's there, they want to use it.. if they know how, what it does and how it could have a benefit. It's not as much as knowing it's there, as allowing it to make sense in the users "point of view". This part is a discussion about providing a service, allowing users to use it and the complaints of miss-use. > >> ISPs could allow ONLY their customers to connect to their time >> servers and everybody would be happy. I mean there should be a law >> that forces ISP to provide ntp services to their customers ;-)) It >> is silly to make others like pool members pay for it. > > And in four elegant lines you have nutshelled the modern net.attitude > that is why I've been considering withdrawing from the net entirely: > laws for everything, payment for everything, and no understanding of > volunteering for the good of the net. Ooh god.. don't drag us down the "drain". (Pun intended in every way possible). Don't get us into politics, that's just plain wrong. Let the people that don't have a clue what kind of world their living in do their thing, and let us have a ball at bashing the attitude that lives among those who don't have a clue. It is wrong to make use of something that does not belong to you, or is not intended for your use. It's wrong. It's not allowed, EVEN if you can. Ethics, law.. there are a number of reasons why you should not even attempt to. Providing information on how you can changes the audience the paper is intended to. > >> NTP is a mess and nobody seems to care. Like a timekeeper list >> poster mentioned this week; It makes him feel "important" to serve >> time to a bunch of people and there is no other valid reason to be a >> member of the pool beside the fun of experimenting, watching the >> traffic and maintaining stats. > > Death of volunteerism, again. *Some* of us are here because we simply > want to help others, for its own sake. And even if the main motivation is knowledge, getting in contact with other, understanding how it is to work as a group without the possibility to smack somebody around when they screw up.. so what? You shouldn't even care what the motivation is.. but if you honestly think that a statement like "NTP is a mess and nobody seems to care" fits as an argument I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. Now we are getting to a point in the discussion who should take the responsibility of providing a service. Well dang it, providing a service. Provide.. whoops. I just gave it away :) >> It is a pity that ISPs rely on guys like pool members to provide this >> service to their customers when it is their responsibility. The perfect world would have every ISP give the basic service so that they would work together, as a.. "world wide ISP-team" to prevent discussions that end up in strange politics and ethics. I tend to see it as a responsibility to my customers to provide a service that works and is complete. I tend to see it as a basic service to provide the information to my customers how to use the services, even if they don't care or don't want to get down to the "dirty technical" stuff. > How is it their responsibility? I don't see any reason why an ISP has > a responsibility to run an NTP server - or any other server, for that > matter - absent, of course, some contractual commitment to do so, and > I've never heard of one that applies to running NTP. I'm willing to just shut down servers or disconnect lines if I'm getting abuse/spam/hacks and he/she can't provide some decent logs without me constantly adjusting to the fact that his/her computer still thinks it's 1998, and claims that we are running 6 hours late that day. I'm not really focused on what is "right", but what makes my life as a sysadmin a tad more easy. I'm not beeing payed to waist my time on bogus information, or corrupted information which I have to correct before I can do something with it. It's my responsibility to provide the knowledge and the service, and it's the customers responsibility to use it. If either one fails there is no "good" possible way to provide any support which relates to connectivity. >> If done right, the cost would be ridiculous for ISPs so it wouldn't >> affect the price they charge for their services. > > Have you ever worked at an ISP? I have - I work at one now - and, > based on my own experience, you appear to have an unrealistic model of > an ISP's costs. Your both wrong. You can have a perfectly good NTP service (for well over 30.000 users) running for jack shit. It's such a odd concept that a good service must cost a heck of a lot, or nothing at all.. it's ridiculous. (exceptions are true.. but in this case the price factor is blow out of proportions). _______________________________________________ timekeepers mailing list [email protected] https://fortytwo.ch/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/timekeepers
