Interesting point, Joe. I'd also add, regarding the aversive consequences, two things: (1) not everything humans consider aversive may seem so to dogs -- in the case of the dog that "caught" a skunk, do we know the smell of the skunk's spray bothers the dog as much as it would humans? There are quite a few other noxious smells that, in my experience, don't phase dogs a bit! (2) Some of the aversive consequences may not be immediate, and thus not recognized by the dog as connected to the event -- in the case of the pain of having the porcupine quills removed, I doubt most dogs would understand that pain as a consequence of the porcupine encounter.
Finally, dogs -- like humans -- vary greatly in degree of intelligence ;-) Take care, Vivian Hamilton Horton, Joseph J. wrote: >It makes some sense that dogs would persist in behavior that had >aversive consequences. This is what they have been bred to do. For >example, a herding dog that developed a fear of cows after getting >kicked once, would not sire any pups. > >Joe > >Joseph J. Horton Ph. D. >Box 3077 >Grove City College >Grove City, PA 16127 > >724-458-2004 > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >In God we trust. All others must bring data. >-----Original Message----- >From: Rick Froman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:37 AM >To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) >Subject: RE: [tips] Dogs, Porcupines, and Learning theories > >I was probably too general with my reference to Overmier and Seligman. >It just seems to me, in my experience with dogs, that no matter how many >times a dog might engage in a behavior followed by an aversive >consequence, it doesn't seem to decrease the frequency of engaging in >that behavior or make them act helpless. Possibly this applies >specifically to behaviors that are so intrinsically rewarding that the >aversive consequence has no impact. > >Rick > >Rick Froman >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >-----Original Message----- >From: Michael Scoles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 10:19 AM >To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) >Subject: Re: [tips] Dogs, Porcupines, and Learning theories > >The replies to this question that cite Seligman (actually Overmier and >Seligman) and Guthrie have me confused. The question of what is >"learned" in learned helplessness is a problem, but seems to have little >relevance to one experience with porcupine quills. One could make the >case that, if the experience stopped the ongoing behavior of chasing and >catching a porcupine, Guthrie might consider this as potentially >reinforcing. > >I will got along with the Breland reference. Dogs do what dogs do, >whether it makes sense to us or not. My mother's westie (yappy little >monster) "caught" a skunk recently. An unpleasant event for her, but >she is sure he would do it again. > > > >Michael T. Scoles, Ph.D. >Associate Professor of Psychology & Counseling University of Central >Arkansas Conway, AR 72035 >501-450-5418 >>>> "Jean-Marc Perreault" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 08/29/07 5:19 >>>> PM >>> >An interesting question arose a while back... > >Why do dogs, after biting into a porcupine (which is a very unpleasant >event, with sometimes harsh consequences, <<such as having needles that >are shaped as fish hooks pulled out of the mouth with pliers>> keep >going after other porcupines later on? > >Would one argue that instinctual behaviour (that of chasing small >critters) overcome, or even prevent, learning? > >I'm quite interested in the answer to that one... > >Cheers! > >Jean-Marc > > > >--- >To make changes to your subscription go to: >http://acsun.frostburg.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=tips&text_mode=0&lang= >english > > > >--- >To make changes to your subscription go to: >http://acsun.frostburg.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=tips&text_mode=0&lang= >english > > >--- >To make changes to your subscription go to: >http://acsun.frostburg.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=tips&text_mode=0&lang= >english > > >--- >To make changes to your subscription go to: >http://acsun.frostburg.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=tips&text_mode=0&lang=english > > --- To make changes to your subscription go to: http://acsun.frostburg.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=tips&text_mode=0&lang=english
