Hi It is only my subjective impression, but in reading the comments about these events on the NY Times, there seemed to be a striking difference in reaction of civilians (for want of a better term) and people who self-reported having seen action during military service. The latter seemed more sympathetic to some of the psychological explanations being provided in the original article. People who work in emergency occupations (pretty gory I imagine) also (subjectively again) seemed more sympathetic to the comments that most of us find offensive. The vast majority of the (popular) comments, however, were very dismissive of the psychobabble and of any justification for the actions and chatter in the video.
As for the last sentence, I believe the drop in violent crime statistics is pretty universal and wonder what sort of evidence would give rise to the "speculation" about its relation to the war? Take care Jim James M. Clark Professor of Psychology 204-786-9757 204-774-4134 Fax j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca >>> "William Scott" <wsc...@wooster.edu> 11-Apr-10 7:20:24 PM >>> Tim Shearon asks: what evidence is there that these particular individuals are not exceptional (exceptionally bad examples!). ------- I had second thoughts after sending the outrage that Tim was referring to (still partially hanging below) because I know that psychopathic individuals are drawn to particular occupations and certain pathologies can blossom because of the interaction of person with an encouraging environment. But I wrote those thoughts because the military officers who observed the video (the same one we saw) simply concluded that "the soldiers and pilots involved were in accordance with the law of armed conflict and their rules of engagement". In other words, the soldiers and pilots were doing what they were trained to do and there was nothing wrong with it. Perhaps, then, these soldiers were not shaped into psychopaths by the army but had the "talent" for becoming what the army wanted of them before arriving for training. But nevertheless they performed (that performance being what both we and the army saw in the video of this incident) the way the army preferred them to perform. And, if this is so, then it is unlikely, even if the Army wanted to do so, that these particular special troops could be taught to discriminate between the work field and home. If this is "work as usual", as it seems to be according to the Army, then we are in trouble no matter how we look at it. I'm not saying there aren't good people in the military but those good guys should be looking at what they are spawning. BTW, there has been speculation that the current downward trend in domestic violent crime statistics has been because the war in Iraq has been syphoning off our otherwise unoccupied psychopaths. So there's that, isn't there? Good news. Bill >>> "Shearon, Tim" <tshea...@collegeofidaho.edu> 04/09/10 2:02 PM >>> Bill Scott said: "I don't think these troops grew up a[s] psychopaths, but they are acting as such in their occupations. Do we want this to be the result of our boot camps and on the job training? Are we providing the proper discriminative stimuli" Bill, I was mostly following you up to that point. But you went on to say, "to make sure that our trained psychopaths know the difference between their job and their home? We obviously can't teach them to discriminate between cameras and guns." Given the video and what it shows, I do understand your frustration. What we see is completely unacceptable and even, it seems likely, criminal. On the other hand, what evidence is there that these particular individuals are not exceptional (exceptionally bad examples!). In other words, what is the evidence that military training begins with normal folk (non-psychopaths) and creates them. It would seem logical to me that a normal young person trained by the military would be a normal person with military training (allowing also for issues of the effects of the horrors of what the soldiers, etc. experience). It seems especially problematic to assume that these individuals were not somehow damaged before their military training given that the military is voluntary. One might easily imagine factors that would pre-dispose such flawed personalities to choose to join the military. It is troubling, of course, that the military doesn't understand this or, at least, doesn't appear to from what we see here- perhaps the issue is how someone with those tendencies would be allowed to receive the training and be allowed to wear the uniform for our nation. I know many soldiers, life-timers who are now retired, and etc. and I find very few to be classifiable as anything other than kind and caring people- that would include my father, my step-son, and many of my neighbors and friends. As unacceptable as this video and what it depicts is, I don't accept the characterization I seem to perceive that all who've served us should be characterized by the actions of these. . . words fail me. Have a good weekend. Tim _________________________________________________________________ Timothy O. Shearon, PhD Professor and Chairperson of Psychology The College of Idaho 2112 Cleveland Blvd Caldwell, ID 83605 teaching: Bio and neuropsychology, history and systems, general, psychopharmacology tshea...@collegeofidaho.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: wsc...@wooster.edu. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13058.902daf6855267276c83a639cbb25165c&n=T&l=tips&o=1876 or send a blank email to leave-1876-13058.902daf6855267276c83a639cbb251...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a891720c9&n=T&l=tips&o=1899 or send a blank email to leave-1899-13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a89172...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. 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