Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
DAVEH: Kevin, I am not suggesting that the overall nature of THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS does not encourage mankind to repent while in mortality. SWK is very insistent that repenting is a major part of our reason for existing in mortality. He also counsels against putting off repenting until the next (after--) life.The part of your posts I found disagreeable with is that you suggested SWK said we "must" do this (eliminate sins and become perfect) in this life, implying (and no, you did not specifically say the following) that failure to do so causes one to be cast into the lake of fire. As I read SWK's comments, he indicates that failure to overcome one's weaknesses results in a failure to reach the highest potential of our heavenly goal.
Kevin Deegan wrote:
YOU COULD NOT FIND"The Prophet states you must be PERFECT NOW"
I CUT & PASTE SOME OF THE PARTS THAT TEACH THE ABOVE
assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt.5:48.) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. BE PERFECT IS NOT BECOME PERFECT! Perfection therefore is an achievable goal. GOAL FOR WHO THOSE IN THE AFTERLIFE? THEN WHY IS HE WRITING THIS TO YOU? The Savior had lived the commands of his gospel; now it was required of all men to likewise live the commandments. MEN ARE REQUIRED TO LIVE IT, NOT ANGELS, NOT RESSURECTED BEINGS BUT ALL MEN Only as we overcome shall webecome perfect and move toward godhood. As I have indicated previously, the time to do this is now, in mortality. THE TIME IS NOW, NOT TOMMOROW, NOT AFTER THIS LIFE, NOW! While we lack recollection of our pre-mortal life, before coming to this earth all of us understood definitely the purpose of our being here. We would be expected to gain knowledge, educate ourselves, trainourselves. We were to control our urges and desires, master and controlour passions, and overcome our weaknesses, small and large. We were to eliminate sins of omission and of comission, and to follow the laws and commandments given us by our Father. BEING HERE, NOT IN THE 2ND HEAVENCONTEXT IS ON THIS EARTH, PURPOSE OF BEING HERE...TO ELIMINATE SINS "There are some people who have supposed that if we are quick-ened telestrial bodies that eventually, throughout all the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we find our place in the celestrial kingdom, but the scriptures and revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestrial bodies cannot come where God and christ dwell, worlds without end" Conference report Oct 1945 p 172 also P 145 Melchesedek Priesthood Personal Study GuideDave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
DAVEH: My latest comments are in GREEN.......Kevin Deegan wrote:
MY COMMENTS ARE BOLD & CAPITALIZED!STARTING AT ABOUT MIDWAY DOWN ON PAGE 208WE HAVE THE FOLLOWING HEADING & TEXTWE WILL CONTINUE THRU PG 209 TILL WE HIT 210 Repentant Life Seeks Perfection One could multiply references almost indefinitely but enough hasbeen said to establish the point that the repentant life, the life whichconstantly reaches for perfection, must rely on works as well as on faith. The gospel is a program of action - of doing things. Man's immortalityand eternal life are God's goals. (Moses 1:39.) Immortality has beenaccomplished by the Savior's sacrifice. Eternal life hangs in the balanceawaiting the works of men. This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achievingperfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness ofsins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes bycomplying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mounthe made the command to all men: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as yourFather which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt.5:48.) Being perfect meansto triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just andwise and kind. He would never require anything from his children whichwas not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfectiontherefore is an achievable goal. The Savior voiced the same instruction to his Nephite leaders whenhe told them the requirements of the gospel: to be like himself. (3 Ne.12:48.) The Savior had lived the commands of his gospel; now it wasrequired of all men to likewise live the commandments. Nephi quoted theSavior along the same line: And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: Hethat is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the HolyGhost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye haveseen me do. (2 Ne. 31:12.) The Lord amplified his statement somewhat to the Nephites when,after long dissertations on growing perfect through living the gospel, heasked his disciples the pertinent question: "Therefore, what manner ofmen ought you to be?" He may have been merely trying to impress themfurther with the truth and reinforce it, or he may have been asking inorder to note how well thy had been grasping the vital truths he wasteaching them. He did not wait for their response, but followed thequestion quickly with the answer: "Verily I say unto you, even as I am."(3Ne. 27:27.) Perfection really comes through overcoming. The Lord revealedthrough John: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in mythrone, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in histhrone." (Rev. 3:21.) It seems that evil is always about us. It has been speculated byone of the earlier Brethren that there are hundreds of evil spiritsworking against each of us. Accordingly, we must be alert constantly. Wecatalogue our weaknesses and move in against them to overcome them.Christ became perfect throught overcoming. Only as we overcome shall webecome perfect and move toward godhood. As I have indicated previously,the time to do this is now, in mortality. Someone once said: "A fellow who is planning to reform is onestep behind. He ought to quit planning and get on with the job. Today isthe day." Certainly self-mastery is a continuous program - a journey, nota single start. Men do not suddenly become righteous any more than a tinyacorn suddenly becomes an oak. Advancement to perfection can neverthelessbe rapid if one resolutely strides toward the goal. WE ARE NOW AT PAGE 210 ALMOST MIDWAY DOWN THE PAGENEXT SECTION IS "Perspective is Important" NEXT WE HAVE PAGE 5 THE HEADING BELOW IS ON PG 4 MIDWAY DOWNTHEN STARTING AT SECOND PARAGRAPH Our Pre-mortal Understanding "One definite purpose of our spirits coming to this earth and assuming themortal state was to obtain a physical body. This body was to be subjectto all the weaknesses, temptations, frailties, and limitations ofmortality, and was to face the challenge to overcome self. While we lack recollection of our pre-mortal life, before comingto this earth all of us understood definitely the purpose of our beinghere. We would be expected to gain knowledge, educate ourselves, trainourselves. We were to control our urges and desires, master and controlour passions, and overcome our weaknesses, small and large. We were toeliminate sins of omission and of comission, and to follow the laws andcommandments given us by our Father. That the effort involved dignifiesand ennobles man has been recognized by the world's great thinkers.Dante, for example, put it this way: 'consider your origin; you were notformed to live like brutes, but to follow virtue and knowledge.'"1
1Dante, Divine Comedy.FOOTNOTE AT BOTTOM OF PAGE IS THE ABOVEPLEASE SHOW HOW THIS WAS TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT!
DAVEH: I guess the question should be asked of you, Kevin.......How does this fit into the context of what SWK wrote above?........"The Prophet states you must be PERFECT NOW"
.........I've read it a couple times now, Kevin, and don't see it. Now, let's review you second statement......
"It says you MUST ELIMINATE SINS in this world"
...........I just read through it once again, Kevin, and fail to see where he said this either.
David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:As a moderator of the list, I need to step in here and provide some guidance. I don’t want misunderstandings to cause hard feelings toward one another. Please bear with me as I try and share an outsider’s perspective here. I’m not trying to take sides, just make some observations and ask both sides to forbear with one another and have patience.Kevin wrote:
I see that you are the one, who took the LIBERTY to MISQUOTE me!It is actually you who is guilty of MISQUOTING. I am deeply offended that you would misqoute me & at the same time accuse me of that which you are guilty of!You have put " " around my words.
It was not there; you did it. The PROOF is just a few lines down in this post.
How dare youattack my integrity and then publicy do what you accuse me of. I think that is despicable.
I cut & pasted your edited quote:
"WE MUST BECOME PERFECT NOW"
Here is the ORIGINAL POST!
WE MUST ELIMINATE SINS IN OUR MORTAL STATE
"One definite purpose...assuming the mortal state...We were to control our urges and desires, master and control our passions, and overcome our weaknesses, small and large. We were to eliminate sins of omission and of comission" M.of F. Kimball p 5
As anyone can see I "quoted" Mr Kimball & outside of those quotes were MY COMMENTS IN CAPS & BOLD! I would hope this combination of my words bold & CAPS (for those seeing just TEXT) would pose a double check on MY WORDS vs Kimball's "words"
You say I misquoted MR Kimball show cause or RETRACT!Hi Kevin.It seems to me that you left off the starting quote mark for your first quote. Following is the original post you sent on 12-9-2003.
-----Original Message-----
From:TruthTalk[EMAIL PROTECTED].innglory.org [mailto:TruthTalk[EMAIL PROTECTED].innglory.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Deegan
Sent:Tuesday, December 09, 20038:22 AM
To:TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of A.Word.A.Day
WE MUST BECOME PERFECT NOW
Christ became perfect through overcoming. Only as we overcome shall we become perfect and move toward godhood. As I have indicated previously, the time to do this is now, in mortality" The Miracle of Forgiveness Spencer W Kimball President & Prophet p 210.
WE MUST ELIMINATE SINS IN OUR MORTAL STATE
"One definite purpose...assuming the mortal state...We were to control our urges and desires, master and control our passions, and overcome our weaknesses, small and large. We were to eliminate sins of omission and of comission" M.of F. Kimball p 5
So your religion is ineffective for you. You are not progressing to godhood.It is not clear whether or not “WE MUST BECOME PERFECT NOW” is part of the quote attributed to Kimball. I realize that you know that the capital bold letters are yours, but you also bold other letters within the quote itself, so with the missing quote mark, it is a little confusing for those of us reading what you are sharing.
It seems to me that Dave was just trying to clarify what was part of the quote and what was not part of the quote, and you should be agreeing with him now, not accusing him. You are agreeing with Dave that “WE MUST BECOME PERFECT NOW” and “MUST ELIMINATE SIN” are not part of the quote of Kimball.
It also seems to me that Dave was trying to clarify two separate things: 1) that the first mistake on your part caused an actual misquote. “WE MUST BECOME PERFECT NOW” was not ever written by Kimball; and, 2) that your characterization of “WE MUST ELIMIMATE SINS IN OUR MORTAL STATE” is not at all what Kimball was trying to say in the second quote that you offered. This is why Dave said in regard to this, “as you suggested” rather than “as you quoted him.” The second quote has missing words, and from what I can read in the quote, I can’t tell what Kimball is saying. The use of “were” suggests a subjunctive mood which makes it highly probable that your characterization of his quote (“WE MUST ELIMINATE SINS”) is not accurate. If you or Dave can provide a more full quote without the missing words, maybe it would help us understand what the real message of Kimball was. With that information, then maybe we can come to a conclusion concerning whether or not you are misrepresenting Kimball’s teaching.
Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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