Hi Dean.
We have a problem here. I’m going to try and explain it to you and I do pray that you receive this in the love and graciousness with which I offer it.
Dean writes:
If I have done wrong I will accept your rebuke David- but I have also done some highlighting of you words- If I am to be rebuked so are you.
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There are actually two issues here. One issue simply has to do with the rules of TruthTalk rather than Christianity and following Jesus Christ. We have a rule on TruthTalk that Christians are free to break outside TruthTalk but not on TruthTalk itself. That rule is that we do not allow attacking a member of the list. You may attack their viewpoints, but you may not attack them as a person. For example, you can say, “Judy, it seems to me that you are wrong on this point because … x, y, z,” but you cannot say, “Judy, YOU are not a saved person because if YOU were, you would not be siding with the Mormons on this. Judy, YOU are no sister of mine. I am of GOD and I am God’s man, and I want nothing to do with you because YOU are clearly not a follower of Jesus Christ.” Now please understand that you answer to God concerning comments like this outside of TruthTalk. This is no reprimand for you speaking this way in public to a sinner on the street who is lost. However, on the TruthTalk list, you do answer to me because I have authority over this list. I am asking you to stop attacking Judy.
Dean writes:
So if I attack someone and refer to them as being in a group that is ok ? If I say the Mormons on TT are stupid that is acceptable? You tell Judy to stop attacking the street preachers then I will be willing to talk to Judy with respect- and we can start afresh with no attacks from either of us.
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Just so you know, the reason I enforce this rule is because in my opinion, e-mail is VERY LIMITED in its ability to reveal who a person is. People are much more likely to say and do things on email knowing they can just walk away. Therefore, it is the anonymous and impersonal nature of email that requires me to have some kind of rule like this that would encourage fruitful discussion.
Dean writes:
I can abide by this-but it must work both ways or it will not work at all.
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Now there is another issue interwoven here that actually concerns your walk in holiness. I’m going to quote your words and highlight the I’s and YOU’s in it to make a point. There is a dual point that I am making with it. One point concerns trying to show you how you violate the TruthTalk rule of no ad hominem arguments, which is a fancy way of saying, you cannot flame people, accuse people, judge people, or in any way focus upon the person. Your focus needs to be on the idea and opinion they express and not on the person. The second point I hope you will see is that your words are filled with I, I, I, and YOU, YOU, YOU. It is the ME versus YOU thing. Just read the quote below and examine how much you us
e I, I, I and YOU, YOU, YOU. It is like there is this contest between you and Judy. You EXALT YOURSELF and try to HUMBLE HER. This is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ. While my perspective about Street Preaching is much closer to you and supportive of you than it is of Judy, the attitude you express here is not of Christ.
Dean writes:
Where did I exalt myself-Show me the words I spoke to exalt myself? I mentioned myself but I have not exalted myself. I am trying to get Judy to reconsider her words and to whom they are written-these guys are the real deal and she is attacking every statement they make. I will not sit by and allow these men to be bad spoken of-if there is a price involved in doing this I will pay that price David.When references are made to street preachers it is "them" and "they". How am I different? Other then disagreeing with "them" and "You". I don't see how using singular and plural makes that much difference.
Jesus said, "And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted." (Matthew 23:12 KJV) Please read the following quote of YOUR WORDS and look carefully at the I's and the YOU's and judge for yourself. Ask yourself, “Am I exalting myself at Judy's expense?”
Dean writes:
The judge yourself by you very same words.
Dean wrote:
> I totally disagree with your statement here Judy ...
> -When I first came on this site
> I treated you as a full sister-with much love ...
> You attacked me and the street preachers
> to agree with the Mormons-
> you attacked the brethren
> to agree with false prophets.
> ... Yet you will not accept that scripture.
> You claimed that I was wrong (as did David)
> to declare DaveH spoke against the Holy Spirit
> to which I proved with scripture that he in fact did that.
> You wish to be called a sister
> yet every word we speak you attempt to tear apart.
> You continue to insist that the S.Preachers should be out preaching.
> I don't see anyone lead by the Holy Spirit doing this.
> You have shout love! Love!
> and when I show love to Ruben you find fault in that also.
> … You continue to nash at us with your teeth
> so we are withdrawing from you
> which is putting you farther into the Mormon camp-
> whom are sweet talking you to get you to come closer
> as you can also burn in a devils hell with them.
> Tell me if you are fair with your love to the lost
> then where is that love demonstrated towards TPW?
> Both Ruben and I have shown more caring for him than you have
> -maybe if he converts to Mormonism he will be invited to dinner also.
> There isn't one street preacher on this list
> who wasn't first attacked by you.
> You have /are forcing them to defend themselves
> and are finding out they can do so-
> so you go and complain to David that we are mean to you.
> I was once asked if you are of Jesus Christ
> to which I said I don't know -well now I do know-
> you are no sister of mine.
> David can declare you as "strong"-"very intelligent"-
> "a Christian" and all that does is lower my respect
> for him.
> My Bible says that if someone is of God then I will know
> them by their fruit-there will be a visible fruit to be seen-
> or even told of- not just a claim of being a waterer-
> one of God cannot help but to bear fruit-
> we are telling you how to bear fruit
> and all we get back from you is "love.love","stop preaching".
> 1 John 2:19..But they went out, that they might be manifest
> that they are not of us.
Dean writes:
Consider the words of Paul and compare my reference to myself to his reference to himself- If I exalted myself so did Paul by you perception of the word exalt.If you use my word to push me aside then you will also have to push Paul aside to have no respect of persons. I spoke truth about Judy and judged her by the words she spoke-which is my right to do-but I have not judged her soul as worthy of Hell-God is that Judge.
2 Tim.4: 9
Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me.
10.For De-mas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thes-sa-lo-ni-ca; Cres-cens to Ga-la-ti-a, Titus unto Dal-ma-ti-a.
11.Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.
12. And Tych-i-cus have I sent to Eph-e-sus.
13. The cloke that I left at Tro-as with Carpus, when thou cometh,bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.
14. Alaxander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
15. Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
16. At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray that it may not be laid to their charge.
17. Not withstanding the Lord stood with me,and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
18. And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom...
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I highlighted the I’s and the YOU’s to try and help you not read past them. I hope you can see your own heart, which may very well be hidden from you. You may not realize what you are doing. It is my desire that you 1) cease from this approach on this list because it is not an approach we will tolerate on this list, and 2) pray about your attitude of exalting YOURSELF at the expense of someone else. Jesus taught us to be servants, to humble ourselves, to think more highly of others than we do of ourselves (Romans 12:3-4, 12:14-18, Philippians 2:3-5, Galatians 5:15, 25-26, James 3:14-16, 1 Peter 5:5, etc.). I encourage you to walk in this kind of holiness.
Dean writes:
I can speak truth as I see it and still be walking in Holiness-as Paul did. I have not lied about Judy ,DaveH nor you.You declare me as unholy in this discussion-You declared me as being wrong to point out the DavH spoke against the spirit of God- You declared me as being in the wrong when I stated that Judy was saying the street preachers should stop preaching the way they do in Salt Lake City. In all of these I am in the right and will not withdraw-unless the playing field is level-Judy stops attacking the brethren and I also stop attacking Judy-that is fair. There is no way I can tell of a personal narrative and not refer to myself nor the coppersmith Judy.
Dean, judge your own post as quoted above after reading the following passage:
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (Philippians 2:3-5 KJV)
Dean wrote:
> I would also like to remind DavidM that appx 99 % of the
> brethren show great love for each other-You aren't around
> us enough to even know what we share. The only problems I
> see is there are some who want to be leaders -so they go
> out to steal sheep and to do so they cause problems to
> get those sheep-but even then they are few.
I agree with you Dean that she is not around you enough to see the full picture of who you are and what you are about, but your very point also applies to your perception of Judy. You personally know Ruben. You personally know Kevin. Furthermore, you guys are involved in similar functions within the body of Christ. You do NOT know Judy. You are not around her and you do not see the love and faithfulness that she exhibits in her walk in the Lord. I think you need to give her a little more benefit of the doubt, and like 1 Cor. 13 teaches concerning love, think the best of her. No doubt there are issues that keep her from understanding the value of Street Preachi
ng in a wicked generation such as we have, but you really have no idea why she has trouble accepting it. Regardless of the issues, one thing I do know, and that is that Christ has taught us to correct one another with meekness, gentleness and patience.
Dean writes:
I see Judy as just waiting for someone to make a statement that she doesn't agree with and then attacks that person-I have read her words from her own heart which I believe is a black as the ace of spades. I believe she even acts like she likes their words to get them to get in a comfort zone soas they will be free with their words-so she can hit them harder. As stated earlier-only the Devil herself would want to stop the street preachers for speaking truth of Jesus Christ in Salt Lake City. God has also told us to rebuke so as the hearer will fear.
Dean wrote:
> Many of us come from different denominations yet out
> on the street we are one and bond as one in the common
> fight-we also debate those different issues in private-
> with respect- but we recognize each other as part of the
> body and if you will notice on this site we are one here
> also-but you seem to be only with us in part. Our shared
> brotherhood extends to all I have preached with -I could
> go and invite many others here and you would see that
> same bond.
This is only because you agree on Street Preaching. All denominations have some issue that brings them together. For the Churches of Christ it might be water baptism and the vision of a restoration movement, for the Pentecostal it might be the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, for Wesleyans it might be holiness and the person of John Wesley. While your statements indicate evidence that perhaps street preachers have hit upon something needed in our generation, it does not make Judy any less of a sister in Christ just because she does not understand it and is not going out there with you. How can the eye understand the functioning of the ear? How does the hand understand the functioning of the nose? Yet these varied parts need to receive one another and accept the value of one another concerning the full functioning of the whole body. To fail to do that is to fail to
understand Christ and his manifestation in the earth today through his body.
Dean writes:
But the eye will not tell the ear not to hear-nor the ear tell the mouth not to speak. Judy has done this. The devil tells the mouth not to speak the words of Jesus Christ-no one else does this but the devil.
There is ONLY one issue that should cause separation among those who profess faith in Jesus Christ and that is SIN. By sin, I mean an action such as drunkenness, adultery, stealing, murder, kidnapping, bearing false witness, causing factions and strife, etc. So ask yourself which of these sins, or any other sin identified in the Bible, has Judy committed in your presence that has caused you to declare her removed from the body of Christ? By whose authority have you excommunicated her, not only from your fellowship, but from the fellowship of other believers? I trust that you will seriously pray about and consider my words, and I hope you know that my love and affection for you is not abated in the least by any of this.
Dean writes:
As I ask you to also pray about this statement. It is sin to speak evil of the worker of righteousness.It is sin to attempt to stop someone from speaking what God tells then to speak-it is sin to encourage someone to sin-For sin starts in the heart of those that would do evil.Only the devil would do this- and by that fruit I will know them.The act is perceived in the heart before it is carried out.
Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
