Kevin Deegan wrote:
Let me just say that my above explanation is only half the Garden of Eden story. I merely explained as much as I did to answer your above request to elaborate. Why do I always get the feeling you are purposefully leaving out the ugly parts.
DAVEH: There is nothing "" about it, Kevin. It is an important aspect of the plan of salvation in LDS theology. I don't mind discussing LDS theology, but I have tried to refrain from doing so on TT out of respect for those who don't want to hear it. As it is, I've been accused of trying to turn TT into a Mormon forum. And certainly, I've contributed to excessive posting more than a few times in the past. (After yesterday, I am fully expecting DavidM to certify me as the first, only and hopefully last TT*Power*Poster.) <G>It is hard for me to make everybody happy here. Even if you were to persuade me to leave Mormonism and join the protesters in SLC, it wouldn't make all TTers jump for jubilee.....then Blaine would become cranky with me.
I've tried my best to stick to the Bible, as you can see from my below explanation about the fall of Adam. I stopped at that point because to proceed further involves a lot of LDS theology, which you seem to know anyway. So what's the point of discussing LDS theology in a basically Protestant forum? Few want me to do it. And the few (you) who do want me to do it apparently already know it. So......I am very reluctant to proceed as you have requested, Kevin.
One possibility would be for me to post it to you privately though. I'm not sure that would meet your needs though, as I suspect your desire is to bloody my nose in the public arena.
If you really want to discuss it, how about discussing the part I gave you below. Those are things related to the Bible that should make for an interesting thread that others may enjoy following. I've asked several times if you agree with what I said and if it made sense to you.....how about addressing your agreements/disagreements and we can see how well the discussion goes before jumping into LDS theology?
Like Blaines elipses convieniently replacing "born at the LAND of Jerusalem" in the Alma quote.
DAVEH: Perhaps it is due to an overactive imagination.... <VBG>
If you sold a house with a "problem" & forgot or "there was just so much going on" or whatever, you would still be responsible. This is one of the problems I have with Mormonism, always leaving out the juicy parts. Dave if you leave out information, that is a sin of ommission.
DAVEH: I've admitted to being a sinner before. If that is the worst you can say about me, Kevin....thank you! :-)
That is why under oath it is the truth the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the Truth.A house buyer or a potential convert have the right & you have the responsibility to reveal all.
DAVEH: Awwww......gosh Kevin, after you quoted that bit about Brigham Young saying Mormons can out lie and out cheat other Christians who do the same to us, I figured I had the green light to try it with you. LOL
What is in the other HALF?
Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:DAVEH: My latest comments are in GREEN.....Kevin Deegan wrote:
Without the 'fall', there could be no 'salvation'Can you elaborate?DAVEH: Sure Kevin. I'll try to explain my thinking, but forgive me if I make some assumptions about how I perceive the nature of salvation as I think you (and Protestants in general). I really don't understand the explanations that have been given me on TT about salvation. So.....please don't bloody my nose for making some assumptions about your beliefs.At this point in my understanding, I imagine that salvation in a Protestant sense means to be saved from sin in its simplest form. IOW....the grace of Christ's atonement saves you (from the fiery pit) from any sin that you may have committed in the past, or may be committing now or may commit in the future will keep you from from being consigned to hell (the fiery pit)......Am I reasonably close to understanding your perspective, Kevin? In effect salvation is like a perpetual get out of jail free card. The only requirement for many Christians to inherit this gift of grace is faith and repentance. It seems there are more than a few who would also include being born again with those requirements, but I'm not sure if that is as much a requirement or rather that it is a reflection of having been saved. It seems like I am hearing that once saved, whatever happens in the future will not have any effect on you escaping the fiery pit (unless you were to do something extreme, such as if you were to actively turn against the Lord).
On the assumption that I understand Protestant (knowing that you may not consider yourself as such) salvation in that way, let's go back to the Garden of Eden. Before taking the forbidden fruit, Adam had a promise of a way to know good from evil (partaking of the fruit of the tree of good and evil), but God told him not to partake unless he was willing to suffer death. Let's for a moment consider what would have happened if he had not transgressed, Kevin. There would not have been a fall, is that correct? Adam would not have sinned (from your perspective and that of Protestants). So.....if there was no sin by Adam, then why would he need to be saved from the sin which he did not commit? Does that make sense, Kevin? Hang in there with me a little further.....
So.....if Adam had not sinned in the Garden, there would have been no need for salvation and there would have been no need for a Savior to save us from sins we (or at least Adam) did not commit. In short, there would have been no need for the plan of salvation, nor the Savior's role in our salvation, nor Jesus coming to earth or dying on the cross or being resurrected. I hope you followed me on all that, Kevin. Do you agree or disagree with my logic on this?
If you want me to explain anything that I inadequately covered, please ask. I sometimes (oft times) ramble on and bore folks with my convoluted explanations. Let me just say that my above explanation is only half the Garden of Eden story. I merely explained as much as I did to answer your above request to elaborate.
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Dave Hansen
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http://www.langlitz.com
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