From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I see no contradictions in Scripture if taken at face value.
Judy: How can you not, I find this incredulous.... DavidM: Let me quote 1 Timothy 2 for you and then quote some Torah portions that correspond to it. This is pretty basic, but for some reason you seem to be having some kind of tunnel vision that keeps you from seeing the obvious. 1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. Judy: And what does this have to do with anything relevant to us? Didn't the prophecy in Joel and in Acts say that God's Spirit would be poured out on ALL flesh and that both men and women would prophesy and speak in other tongues. How do you do all of that in silence? Also the gifts Christ gave to the Church when he ascended. Were those only for men? Are you telling me that half the Church must be in silence and listen to the other half? Give me a break. Not only that but women were used in the early Church - from the scriptures themselves we can find deaconesses, teachers, evangelists, and apostles who were female and you tell me this is not contradictory? DavidM: Gen 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Judy: Yes and what is all of the above supposed to prove in your doctrine David? How does this validate the idea that the woman is supposed to be 'silent'? DavidM: Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife Judy: I hope you are not implying that Adam did the same as Abraham and messed up by listening to the woman .. I'm kind of getting the idea that this is what you are leading up to. DavidM: 1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. Judy: And how does the man get saved? He too gets saved through childbearing since Christ the Messiah is the ONLY way to God and the man is also fallen... DavidM: Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. So when Paul said in 1 Cor. 14, "as also saith the Torah," he really meant the Torah and not the oral law of the Rabbi's. Judy: No DavidM, you've not proved anything here because the curse prophesied over the woman in Genesis 3:16 is now null and void through Christ because Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law being made a curse for us, so why would Paul put women back under that pray tell? Judy wrote: > God does not want man to be "as God" to woman and usurp > Christ's place of authority over His own servant. > Even in the sphere of marital relations the woman is > not to be irresponsibly submissive to her own husband; > she was to be punished as severely as he if she submitted > under unsuitable conditions (see Leviticus 20:18). DavidM: Equal punishment is always given to those under one's authority. Look how many died because of David's sin with Bathsheba. If I make a poor decision, my children suffer because they are under my authority. Judy: I'm not speaking of children DavidM, certainly we have a responsibility for them. But your wife stands or falls by her own choices, not yours. DavidM: The New Testament Scriptures clearly teach that the man is the head of the woman just as Christ is the head of every man. But I would have you know, that THE HEAD OF EVERY MAN IS CHRIST; AND THE HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3 KJV) Judy: In the sense of laying down his life for her - yes, just as Christ did for the Church which is his body. The man should love his wife as Christ loves the Church. I wrote: > Oh! So you do like the idea of a man being "as God" > to his wife DavidM and you like the idea of ruling > your household rather than being partners and joint > heirs of the grace of God? DavidM: Whether I like it or not has nothing to do with it. It is a responsibility that the Lord puts upon husbands. We have no choice in the matter. Husbands answer to God for how we lead our wives. Judy: Should be how you serve your wife. The Lord is supposed to be leading her. David Miller wrote: >> Did Sarah tell Abraham what to do? In one sense, yes, >> but not in the sense of ruling him. I'm just trying >> to point out that Sarah walked in submission to Abraham >> in this example. She did not rule over Abraham. Rather, >> Abraham ruled over Sarah. Judy wrote: > Hmmmm - if this is so then why did he get himself > into such a mess to start with? DavidM: Because Abraham also submitted unto secular government and the secular government had penalties for a barren wife who did not provide a way for her husband to have children. Judy: How so? What secular government is this? From what I read Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees in obedience to God and was in transit much of the time, I know Sarah had to lie at least twice because he was afraid of some pagan king - was he also afraid of a secular government? David Miller wrote: >> I only express my viewpoint, and then the decision >> is in their hands and I must submit to it. Judy wrote: > You are still living under the law DavidM; you might > want to learn about the new covenant/new wineskin and > new wine in Christ. I've been set free to serve Him > in love and am not about to get entangled again in > that yoke of bondage. DavidM: Submission to authority is not a yoke of bondage. Judy: Paul writes to "Stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free and be not entangled again with a yoke of bondage" We are to 'by love' serve one another. DavidM: Those who understand authority and walk in subjection to authority also understand faith and will be great in faith. Judy: And under whose authority was the father of faith or was that just for Sarah? Grace and Peace, Judy ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
