From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> DavidM wrote: Let me quote 1 Timothy 2 for you and then quote some Torah portions that correspond to it. 1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
Judy wrote: And what does this have to do with anything relevant to us? Dosen't the prophecy in Joel and in Acts say that God's Spirit would be poured out on ALL flesh and that both men and women would prophesy and speak in other tongues. How do you do all of that in silence? DavidM: Do you realize that you are arguing with the words of Paul as written in the Bible? Why are you debating with the Bible? Judy: I'm not doing that David. I have no trouble with the Bible - I'm debating with you... DavidM: The emphasis is on "exercising authority over the man." If you understand the Jewish mindset and method of teaching, it all makes perfect sense why he brings up "silence." Judy: You've got that right - the Jewish mindset that is. This is not from the Torah rather it is from the Talmud or Jewish oral teachings. The Judaising party in the church were actively seeking to bring Christian wives into bondage to the Jewish oral traditions - Jewish men would thank God daily that they weren't born women. DavidM: He does not mean absolutely silent, but only in the kind of argumentative exchanges that happen among teachers and prophets digging into the Word of God. Judy: When I read "silent" I take it to mean "silent". I don't know that the kind of "argumentative exchanges" that you describe are in the Spirit of the Lord. We are told in scripture that the servant of the Lord is not to strive but be patient with all men and apt to teach (2 Timothy 2:24) DavidM: Most churches, however, are very feminized and men do not function much above the feminine level. When you have feminized assemblies, these passages make no sense because men and women function in the same ways. Judy: I haven't a clue what you are talking about here, what do you mean 'feminized'? Are churches supposed to be 'masculine'? This is carnal reasoning. The scriptures teach that in Christ there is no Jew, Greek, male, female, bond or free so where does this division come from? DavidM: Women may prophesy, preach, speak in tongues, and sing as long as they do not exercise authority over men. Judy: Why should anybody be exercising authority over anybody else? We are told to subject ourselves one to another as believers and this applies to husbands and wives who are believers also. Why is so much importance given to men having "authority" over women. I don't see Paul living that way. He had women who labored with him in the gospel. Also the gifts Christ gave to the Church when he ascended. Are these only for men? DavidM: No. Why do you jump to such conclusions from my quoting the Bible? Judy: Because sometimes in exercising spiritual gifts there is a word of exhortation and if given by a woman she would be "exercising authority over men" - Are you saying that half the Church must be silent and listen to the other half? DavidM: No. Judy: Good. Not only that but women were used in the early Church - from the scriptures themselves we can find deaconesses, teachers, evangelists, and apostles who were female and you tell me this is not contradictory? DavidM: The passage is not contradictory when we look at the context and understand what is being said. Some try and say that Jesus Christ was a cannibal and taught cannibalism, but they are lifting passages out of context and not seeking to understand the message being conveyed. Judy: I'm glad you mention understanding in the light of context. Have you studied the history of Corinth and Ephesus? Had you thought that possibly some of their social customs could be part of the problem that Paul was addressing here? What about the head covering thing? DavidM wrote: Gen 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. Judy: And what did the first Adam say? "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh" (Gen 2:23) and we read of the last Adam, "For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the Church; for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones... (Eph 5:29). I wrote previously: What is the above supposed to prove in your doctrine David? DavidM: I am quoting the Torah portion being referenced by Paul in 1 Timothy 2:12-13. I'm only trying to show you that Paul got his thinking from the Torah, and so when he says in 1 Cor. 14 "as saith the Torah" he meant the Torah of Moses known to us as the first five books of the Bible. Judy: But there is nothing from Genesis to Malachi that says anything about women being silent in a public assembley or about women having no authority over men. Deborah was a Judge in Israel and she led men into battle. Has God changed? DavidM: If you want to discuss what the Torah means in this regard, that is another question. First we have to agree that Paul meant Torah when he said, "as saith the Torah." Judy: But he didn't say "as saith the Torah" he said "as saith the law" and only the oral law of the Jews prohibited women speaking in the synagogue; this was a prohibition by the Rabbinical traditions where women were excluded, not only from teaching but also from learning. DavidM: The point is that Adam was made first, then Eve. Woman was made for man and not man for woman. Therefore, there is an order of authority here just as parents are in authority over children by virtue of them being first. Judy: Are you putting your wife in the same category as your children? Parents are responsible before God to raise children together as joint heirs of the grace of God. DavidM: God seeks to maintain that order of man being the head of the woman so that we might understand the Godhead and so that man might better understand his relationship to Christ. Judy: I don't understand how this applies to the Godhead at all because I don't see any authoritarian structure there. DavidM: In teaching which is interactive, where men interrupt one another and challenge one another, this should be done decently and in order. It should be done man to man, with women being silent. Judy: This makes no sense to me either. When Paul wrote these epistles women were uneducated and coming to the Church out of heathenism and this is what these scriptures address. Today however, women are educated, have the same anointing within to guide them into all truth, the same covenant, the same Lord. DavidM wrote: 1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife Judy wrote: I hope you are not implying that Adam did the same as Abraham and messed up by listening to the woman .. I'm kind of getting the idea that this is what you are leading up to. DavidM: I'm just trying to quote the Torah portions which you claimed did not exist. Paul makes a distinction between Adam and Eve in relation to their sin, and he uses this in his argument for why women should not teach in authority over a man, but rather she should learn in silence. Judy: So you are saying that Eve was deceived and because of this women can't speak in Church and men should have authority over them? What about when David (a man after God's own heart) listened to the serpent and numbered Israel? (1 Chron 21:1) causing the people to be cursed with pestilence which cost the lives of 70,000 men? This kind of reasoning makes no sense at all and God is not confused. DavidM wrote: 1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. So when Paul said in 1 Cor. 14, "as also saith the Torah," he really meant the Torah and not the oral law of the Rabbi's. Judy: If it is in the Torah then you should be able to find "Let your women keep silence in the gathering for it is not permitted unto them to speak and they are commanded to be under obedience" and you can't find it David because it isn't there. DavidM: Paul did not put women back under the curse of the law. You are not following his argument very well. Paul only viewed the first part of Gen. 3:16 as a curse from which women have been set free. The latter part which said, "he shall rule over thee" was a reiteration of the Divine Order that existed prior to the fall. It existed, as Paul explains, because Adam was created first and then Eve, and Eve was created for Adam, as a help meet for him. Judy: "Thy desire shall be toward thy husband and he shall rule over thee" was part of this curse David. There was noone ruling over anyone before that Jesus told his followers not to be like the Gentiles whose rulers exercised Lordship over them. I wrote: Your wife stands or falls by her own choices, not yours. David: I respectfully disagree. When we were married, my wife took my name. She no longer exists without me, and I do not exist without her. We are no longer independent of one another. We are one. In our relationship, I am her head just as Christ is my head. That means she submits unto me in the same way that I submit unto Christ. Because she does that, I am responsible for her. If she falls, it will be my fault. Judy: You have taken on a false burden and this is really sad. You are married for the purpose of procreation and wives should give way to their own husbands in the marriage because it is good to have peace in the home and for the children to see a good example. Also the Christian marriage is intended to be a picture of Christ, the Bridegroom, and the Church, the Bride and Christian couples have the opportunity to portray to the world something of this heavenly union but the husband is not instructed to rule over, to shepherd, or to guid his wife, but to love and cherish her as his own body. Judy wrote: Should be how you serve your wife. The Lord is supposed to be leading her. DavidM: Leading is a form of service. Jesus led the apostles and he was among them as a servant. Yes, the Lord does lead my wife. Our leading her is the same, not mutually exclusive. I don't lead her in anything that I don't hear from God first. Judy: Oh! So you are her guru and she must mindlessly submit to what you say is the Lord through you? DavidM wrote: Because Abraham also submitted unto secular government and the secular government had penalties for a barren wife who did not provide a way for her husband to have children. Judy wrote: How so? What secular government is this? DavidM: Hammurabi was a contemporary of Abraham and so the Hammurabi code gives us a lot of insight into the mentality of that period of history. More importantly, the Nuzi Tablets of Iraq actually mentions a law which gives a penalty to a barren wife if she did not provide someone, such as her handmaid, by whom her husband could bear a male child. I don't remember exactly what the penalty was right now, but reading these laws is very fascinating and helps us understand how Abraham and Sarah came to do the things that they did. Judy: That's interesting... Note: I read somewhere that when Paul wrote Timothy at Ephesus that Timothy was dealing with the gnostic heresy in his Church there and this heresy was led by women who taught that they were infallible; this is why the emphasis upon Adam first, then Eve and the woman was deceived etc. This understanding is all that makes sense to me in light of the rest of scripture. To argue that the male, because he is a male, has a special qualification for service to God, is to argue that in masculinity there is that in which he may justly glory and God says that "no flesh" shall glory before Him (1 Cor 1:29) Men and woman are joint heirs of the grace of God. Grace and Peace, Judy ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
