Re: [TruthTalk] The value of history

[Terry Clifton]

David Miller wrote: Terry wrote: You might want to rethink this David. A pillar is used to hold something up. It "upholds". In my opinion, this verse means that the church upholds the truth contained in the Word. It does not establish the Word. It simply lives and teaches what the scriptures reveal through the Holy Spirit. My good friend and elder brother in Christ, I don't know where to begin because I could type for hours and hours about this and only barely scratch the surface. The church does much more than just live and teach what the Scriptures reveal. If you think about it, the churches of Christ actually brought forth to us the Scriptures which we call the Bible. The New Testament came forth as revelation from God and was penned down onto paper as the Spirit gave utterance. Yes, the Scriptures came from the church and not the church from the Scriptures. But there is yet a lot more than this because it really isn't even linear like this, one leading to the other, but it is like a net, like the neurons of the brain, that are all interconnected and feeding one another and reciprocating with one another. Let me make a few points and see if you can figure out where I am coming from without me taking up too much time. 1. Don't just look at the word pillar in that passage, but also "ground," also translated as foundation. The church is the foundation and pillar of truth, or the church is the basis and pillar of truth. Think about the image of a base / foundation with a huge pillar protruding from it. This is what the church is to truth. It is no small part of it. 2. Consider a man who is a member of your congregation suddenly thinks he has insight that an abortionist needs to be killed because he kills unborn children. Try as you might to show him the Bible to deter him from what he wants to do, he interprets the Bible to say that the man needs to die and he is going to use his rifle to kill this abortionist the very next weekend. You bring the matter to the church, and the whole church with one voice says that this man should not kill the abortionist. What should the man do? If the church has no authority about truth whatsoever, then man should do what he thinks is right based upon Scripture. On the other hand, if the church has authority concerning truth, then this man should submit unto the church. Would the church be able to make a case without p[ointing to scripture? 3. Consider 1 Cor. 12 that contrasts the church with dumb idols. The false gods did not have the power of speech. They were mute. Christ's church, on the other hand, has the power of speech. Paul explains this in more detail in 1 Cor. 12-14. Do they not use this power to proclaim the Gospel? 4. Consider the role of the church in 1 Cor. 5 where Paul tells the Corinthians to deliver the man caught in fornication over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. This is church exercising authority in the truth that believers are not to fornicate. This was not a decision made by the church. It was scripture brfore there was a church 5. Consider Paul's admonition to the church not to eat with anyone called a brother who is in various sins. This is the church acting as the pillar and ground of truth. This is the church exercising authority and being an authority in the life of other believers. Good point! But how would the church today know this without the Bible? 6. Consider Mat. 18 where the last step in a personal sin is to tell it to the whole church, and if the one who is in sin does not hear the church, he is to be treated as a heathen and a publican. This is the church living and teaching what God commands. Without scripture, I would not know this. 7. Consider 1 Cor. 6 where Paul tells the believers to set up courts of law to judge between brothers in Christ so that they would not go before the secular courts in their grievances with one another. 8. Consider the imagery of the candlesticks in Revelation, and how Jesus threatens to remove the candlestick if the church did not repent. I don't know where to stop now. :-) I think maybe you can see a little of where I'm coming from. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. I do not think that we are that far apart.  It's kinda like the chicken and the egg thing.  The church preceeded some of scripture, yet all scripture guides the church.  Though the church theoretically decided what was scripture, it was the God of scripture that guided them.  They, the church , did not invent scripture.  They merely edited it. That's the way I see it, but I was wrong once before in 1938. Terry ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.