David Miller wrote: >> What have I said in this discussion that >> constitutes sin in your eyes? >> Please quote it for me.
John Smithson wrote: > It is very obvious that you have little or no > respect for me at all. In my mind, it came > across as something written out of a condescending > attitude. "It is very easy for you to sling ad > hominem insults and judgments ...." This kind > talk actually makes me quite angry. I did not > "sling" anything and there is nothing in my post > that I see to support your false accusation. > I do listen to criticism. Several of your posts have mentioned my name and Bill's name. Your comments basically have been favorable toward Bill and disfavorable toward me. They make the on-going discussion sometimes difficult in that you have compelled some people to compliment me. People who have met me or know me feel like they have to defend me because of your derogatory remarks toward me. For example, you wrote: "I not only do not believe in perfectionism, I do not see it expressed in the life of Miller or anyone else." And you also wrote: "Maybe BillT is talking about the ultimate conclusion that logic demands as a result of the "perfection" theology as opposed to Miller's sense of benevolence." In this last post, you wrote: "Even though DavidM believes in sanctification, he is not perfect and his imperfection comes to light in much of his discussion." This last post suggests that at least for the sake of discussion here you have accepted my definition of sanctification and perfection, because you start out saying that I believe in sanctification, BUT I am not perfect. Clearly, you just declared me not to be sanctified according to my understanding of sanctification. Furthermore, you have just said that the proof of that is manifested in my posts to this list. Since you know that what we mean by "perfection" hinges upon whether or not we sin, it seems very evident that you perceive sin on my part in the posts that I publish on this list. Your argument against my teaching of Christian Perfection is that I sin in my posts to this list. If that is not an ad hominem argument, what is? You seem to think that it is not an ad hominem argument simply because everyone sins. The point about it being an ad hominem argument is not whether or not it is demeaning, nor whether or not it is true, but only whether or not it focuses upon the person speaking rather than the substance of his arguments. In any case, I am just asking you to substantiate your claim. It is easy to hurl such notions around, but it is not so easy to substantiate them. What did I say in any of my posts that causes you to perceive sin in my life? Please answer this question. As for the idea that I have little respect or no respect for you, I think you are misjudging me. Don't let one difference of opinion that we have between us spoil everything else. As for my speaking to you in a condescending fashion, we might have to talk that one out a little bit. I sometimes have found that whenever someone has a strong opinion about something, and they express that opinion in opposition to someone else, they are criticized as being snobby, arrogant, or condescending. Often this judgment is wrongly made because the person making the criticism lacks the knowledge and understanding of the one they criticize. Was Jesus condescending towards others when he cleared out the Temple? Was he condescending in his discourse in Matthew 23 in the way that he talked to the scribes, Pharisees, and hypocrites? Well, in some way we might say he was, but was that sin? I hope you don't think it was sin for Jesus to speak in this way. Our culture certainly considers it a sin, but not God. Maybe we should start a new thread to talk about this concept of condescending, because it seems to me that this relates to the problems that people have communicating with Chris. Also, this relates very much to the concept of sound doctrine, which is something that I think would benefit you and others if we discussed it. John Smithson wrote: > Things like condescension, envy, pride, conceit, > bigotry and the like are NOT sins that we commit > so much as they are sinful attitudes that we abide > and they are condemned as surely as any sin committed > in time. Interesting sentence. You seem to combine sins within our culture with true sins. We would have to talk about "condescension" and "bigotry." These are sins of our culture, concepts used to level accusations against God himself and destroy the good fruit of sound doctrine. Often these terms are used to mask the real sin, which is pride and hatred. Pride might lead someone to speak in a condescending manner, and hatred might cause someone to express bigotry, and in such cases this would be sin, but there are similar outward manifestations that our culture considers to be sin which are not sin at all. For example, God might be accused of racism and bigotry against the heathen nations in Israel's history. He might also be accused of bigotry in his attitude towards homosexuals and abortionists. He might be viewed as condescending in how he spoke to Miriam and Aaron in Numbers 12. Nevertheless, in none of these matters did God sin. With regards to sins of the heart, I agree with you that envy or pride constitute sin in our lives when we allow them to shape our attitude. On the other hand, these are natural desires of the flesh, and just having a sensation of pride or envy is not by itself sin. It is a temptation. When we reject such desires and keep them dead and follow the Spirit, we walk in victory over these sins. John Smithson wrote: > I do not believe that you or anyone > else is morally perfect. I do not > know you personally Then how would you know if I was morally perfect or not? Isn't this something that God alone can judge? John Smithson wrote: > ... you are on the verge of excluding me from > full fellowship, at least in your mind. > "You have raised serious accusation against my > Lord .... " is your charge against me. I am not on the verge of excluding you from fellowship. I am bringing to your attention how dangerous your idle words are. Make good the charge or retract it. My comment here should help you see that I am not motivated out of pride or self interest, but I speak because I feel that you have insulted my Lord. John Smithson wrote: > Startling and baseless. My comment only appears startling and baseless to you because you do not perceive me to be God's handiwork. If I am but as all other men as they are born into this world, then your comments might not be so objectionable to my Lord, but if I have been born from above, if I am God's handiwork created after Christ Jesus unto good works, then your accusation that I am not such is an accusation against the work of Christ. It is no different than maligning an automobile manufacturer by looking at an automobile coming straight out of the factory and saying, "this car is a piece of junk and worthless." What does such say about the manufacturer? It says that he does not do good work. My trust for who I am is completely in the Lord. If you have a fault with the work he is doing in me, I want to know what it is so that I can take it up with him. So the question is: What did I say in any of my posts that causes you to perceive sin in my life? There will be two possible outcomes if you answer this. Either I will correct your misunderstanding or misjudgment of my motives for saying something, or I will be repenting upon my knees before my Lord and asking him how it happened that I stepped out from the direction of his Holy Spirit. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." 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