RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false

[Jonathan Hughes]

From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Judy, You seem to be having an identity crisis here.    jt:  I can't imagine why you would think such a thing.   JH: Sure you can.  You put your words into a one to one relationship between yourself and the Bible.  When Judy speaks we should really say the Bible speaks.  I myself have fallen for this temptation more than once (I remember distinctly doing it in a post to David Miller – it was a display of the pride in my heart).   Is the viewpoint below what the Bible says or what you perceive the Bible says?    jt: You and Lance just love the word "perceive", it's where we hang all our differences - right?    JH: Absolutely.  You think with a distinct ‘modern’ mindset that comes straight out of the enlightenment.  You are so steeped in it you are unable to climb the walls out.   All you can claim is that it is your interpretation of what the Bible says.    jt: That's all anyone who doesn't see it as you do is able to do so far as you are concenrned isn't it?   JH:  What one can claim is that they have a proper confidence in what they teach and think.  This is not absolute certainty.  It avoids such pride.  It refuses to confuse God’s word with our word.  What is hoped is that our words become a faithful interpretation of God’s words, that others may see through what we say to what God is saying to our hearts.   You can go so far as saying that you believe the Holy Spirit revealed this interpretation to you through scripture.  However, you can never divorce what is your interpretation from what may actually be being said.  This notion seems to give you fits.  It has been illustrated to you time and time again yet you cannot see it.   jt: The same is true for you, Lance, TFT, Bill and whoever else is hanging onto your peculiar view of the incarnation. I have no problem with my vision and am not in the habit of taking fits.  Wrong on both points.   JH: You are correct here.  Lance, TFT, Bill, and myself can never divorce what is their interpretation from what may actually be being said.  There are no rules for you that are not rules for us as well.  When I say that this notion seems to give you fits I am pointing out how incredibly hard it is for this truth to enter into your heart.  Your modern mindset blocks every attempt to understanding on this important point.   At some point in time you will have to learn how to read your Old Testament through the lens of Jesus Christ.    jt: No problems with the OT Jonathan. God does not change.  He says "I am the Lord, I change not"  Neither does Jesus who is "the same yesterday, today, and forever"  Looks to me as though the problem is yours rather than mine.   JH: The above is my opinion of your reading of the OT.  I believe you do not read it through the lens of Jesus Christ, nor even attempt to.  It leads you to misrepresenting texts all over the place.   Deuteronomy 28 and 29 must be understood in the light of who Jesus is and what He has done.  If you read it with an Israeli mindset you will come out all wrong.  If you choose a Christian mindset (and I pray that you do) you will finally come to understand the law and its place in our lives.    jt: There is just one mindset with which to read God's Word and this is the "mind of the Spirit" which is the same as "the mind of Christ"  I don't place myself or anyone else under the law. You really need to understand sin and it's ramifications in the lives of people Jonathan.  Righteousness is something you do, it is not a concept of the incarnation.    JH:  Judy there are multiple mindsets with which to read God’s Word.  Do not confuse your opinion with the ‘mind of Christ’.  In the same way, I do not confuse my opinion with it.   When you do that you will find yourself with a new Bible, one that still speaks today to our hearts, one that illuminates salvation, one that edifies instead of destroys.  You will begin to worship the Word instead of the word.   jt: I don't want or need a "new Bible" the ones I have speak to my heart all the time. I want to know God's ways and walk in them. What would make you imply that the Bible does not speak to my heart? This is really a presumptuous statement.    JH:  God’s grace is such that we may have our doctrine upside down and He still blesses and loves us.  What I pray for is that your doctrines would come in line with who God is.  I did not mean to imply that the Bible does not speak to your own heart, only that the speaking that it would do under a more faithful mindset would be incredible.   Interestingly enough Izzy who is as mad as a hatter at me right now actually gave a compassionate reply to my statement below.  Although she may agree with you doctrinally she is in a whole other class when it comes to compassion.  I feel that you believe your doctrine below so much that it limits your ability to be loving; perhaps it is time for the truth.   jt: We are different and if you prefer Izzy's way, no problem. It's true that I'm not into that kind of compassion with myself or with others.  It's too easy to stroke the flesh and fall for self pity and other snares.  My way of loving people is being up front and speaking the truth to them; I don't play mind games or word games, I don't get mad and I don't take fits. You may not appreciate my part of the body today but hopefully you will before that day.    JH:  I prefer Izzy’s way as it demonstrates love and her deep relationship with God.  I feel that your way demonstrates judgement.  There is a time to be loving and a time to speak the truth harshly.  I think you spend most of your time in the latter.  This saddens me and others on this forum.    Jonathan       From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 9:17 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false   From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy has made many comments on the link between sin and illness.  I believe her viewpoint to be completely unbiblical and extremely hurtful to those that live with illness regardless of the severity.    jt: I agree Jonathan that sickness is hurtful and so is sin - it is hurtful to us and everyone around us. Judy is not the one making that connection Jonathan.  Believe it or not it is Biblical. There would be no sickness but for sin and God Himself outlines the blessings that come from obedience and the curses that come through disobedience (which are every sickness and plague that can be named) in Deuteronomy 28 and Deuteronomy 29. Just because noone wants to accept this or talk about it today does not make it invalid.   jonathan: This is an extremely touchy subject for me as I have lived with chronic illness for the last 16 years.  You should see the posts that I have drafted in my head in response.  The reason they have never seen the light of day is because I know it would not be wise to post them.  This is one of my sacred cows.   jt: Not unusual Jonathan; there is hardly a family alive who has not or is not touched by something chronic, either physically or behaviorally, and that inclues me and mine. I am still dealing with my own stuff but I find denial gets one nowhere.  It's good to agree with God because only the truth will make any of us free - experientially free - not just in theoretically free.   Judyt