RE: [TruthTalk] (no subject)

[Jonathan Hughes]

Hi Judy,   I have a book entitled “Adventures in Missing the Point” by Brian McClaren and Tony Campolo.  Although I doubt you would enjoy the book I love the title.  It is no secret that you have had run-ins with nearly every single person on this forum.  Can we all be so wrong?  Please tell me which person it would take to get you to recognize the tone in your posts?  Would only your husband be able to do this?  No one wants you to leave the forum (as illustrated by the round of posts after you left the forum [Note that you left due to you feeling that everyone was insensitive to you.  You now of course blame Bill and I for being too sensitive]).  What we do want is for you to read our posts and digest them.  What happens instead is an automatic challenge and attack.  Not once have you ever said, “well I agree with what you are saying here” or even a paltry “I see what you are saying here and I understand why you would say it”.  Blanket statements such as ‘you Perichoresis guys’ are made without any attempt to really understand what we are saying.  To understand someone you have to put the gloves down and listen first.  You have to be able to explain it to someone else.  You have to dive into it without condemnation in your mind.  Look to understand the post before looking to rebuke it.  Some of our posts are rather weighty.  When a reply comes back within 20 minutes of the email it becomes very obvious that a dialogue is not going on.  There is no sense of community in your posts; instead it is you (‘guided by God’ always implying that any position that opposes your own is not guided by God) versus us.  We are all brethren that share the same Lord.  Contrast this with Bill and Lance’s attitude towards you.  Although they often disagree with you, both sought to build you up and went to the wire explaining things to you.  Bill is perhaps the most compassionate person on this forum regarding Jenna.  Lance writes a post at least once a week encouraging you in your research and ability to put a coherent post together.  What is being asked of you, being begged of you, is to illustrate grace to others on this forum in the same way God has illustrated His grace to you.   Jonathan   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 9:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] (no subject)   I may not measure up to your standards Jonathan but I am what I am by the grace of God and if I am naive, then that's how it is at least for now.  I am not holding anything over anybody.  This is a public list and all of you are free to contribute/share your own light.  I have challenged and questioned but this should not cause strife.  As for my tone, are you sure you are not reading into my words things I am not saying?   I can't help but wonder why you and Bill are so terribly sensitive.  If what you believe and are holding to is truth, it will stand.  If it's not then I'm doing you a service.  DaveH has been through the wringer much worse than anything you or Bill have had thrown at you on TT and he seems to have taken it all in good humor.  You and Bill say you are believers, DaveH is Mormon... now this is something to ponder.  jt     From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy, Although you are neither stumbled nor offended you are entirely naive.  It is shocking how you attempt to wrestle away any responsibility for your posts, for your tone, for the strife you have caused.  At some point in your life you may need to take seriously what others think about you; to really wrestle with how you come across.  Holding your doctrines, your ‘light of God’s Word’ over top of people is not right.  People are more important; Bill is more important.   Jonathan   Bill, appears to have made his decision to depart which is sad because once again he has judged my motives which is something only God is capable of doing with any accuracy.    I find the questions below to be valid ones and each time I challenge Bill I do so  hoping that he will be able to "give an answer for the hope that is in him (1 Peter 3:15)" but he usually become angry and defensive turning honest questions into accusation which tells me that all of this talk about "fellowship, giving, sharing, participation, communion, and community - is just that, talk" It will take more than a seductive doctrine to bring it to pass.  I've not understood things Bill has said many times before in the light of God's Word.   If Bill would be less emotional and more willing to dialogue it could work.  At this point I am neither stumbled nor offended.   Grace and Peace, Judy        From: "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Peace to you, Judy. You do not read for understanding. If you did, you would understand what I say below by the things I have said many times before. Nope, yours is a different ambition. You read only to find something you can use to stir up strife. Well, guess what? Peace to you. I'm not biting.  Bill   From: Judy Taylor With the words, "Be fruitful and multiply," we may know that we were created for relationship, both with God and our neighbors. This is koinonia: fellowship, giving, sharing,  participation, communion, community. Prayer is relational, too, you know. When Jesus left the crowds he did not leave these things behind. He kept them fully intact, presenting them whole to his Father.   Bill   jt: Where did Jesus have all of the above fellowship, giving, sharing, participation, communion and community in the four gospels Bill?.  It appears to me you "perichoresis"people are trying to find a reality to fit your theology.  Jesus ministered to people (leaving us an example that we should follow in His steps) but Hebrews teaches that he was "separate from sinners" (Hebrews 7:26) and he "endured such a contradiction of sinners against him"  John 2:23-25 tells us that "when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men and needed not that any should testify of man; for he knew what was in man"   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 7/28/2004 6:03:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Having said that, I think you may have unwittingly put God in a box by assuming that He always wants His followers (or his animals) in continual close contact.   Abraham was a nomad, not a member of a community.  Moses ,as I recall, spent a few years alone, as did Elijah, John, the Baptist, and Paul.  Though I don't have much right to put myself in this crowd, I try to spend time alone every day, just to keep my priorities straight and do some thinking on my own.  Just as God made geese to be in flocks, He made tigers to be loners.  You may see a herd of deer, but never a herd of skunks.  Fellowship is important, but uninterrupted fellowship can be a drag.  Jesus often went alone to the wilderness.  I assume that was to get away from the crowd, and have fellowship with God.  Something we all need to do from time to time. Just a thought. Terry I agree with your comments above.  What I see in the thinking I shared is a case for the necessity of community.  All interpretive conclusions have problems, I think.  That is why we have some many opinions floating around on TT.  Eph 5:18-20 presents the idea that Spirit filling is an aspect of community, "Be you filled with the Spirit as you address one another in song  ..." is a Smithson translation (in part) of that text.   Among other considerations, the presentation gives added weight to church involvement, something my wife and I have been a little lax in.  The community of believers bears the image of God  and, therefore, in that community we would expect to see real benefit.  Because community does or should bear the image of God, when that fellowship moves from God, seeks secular solutions and the like, it becomes less than what it could be.  I did not mean to imply a one dimensional concept relating God to man.   I will take a look at the post with that issue in mind.  Thanks Terry John